Question:

<< For something that heavy the ideal tow vehicle would be a MDT.  You can probably look around and find a used diesel MDT for the same price or lower then a new 350/450.   I’ll stick my chin out on this — It looked to me that as you progress from F250 to F650, you still get the same maximum engine.  It’s great for Hunter’s application but not so great when you start using the GCWR of the F650.  That’s what turned me off on the very slick F650 RV hauler. Tom  M

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I just went to Sunnybrooks site. You’re dead wrong on that. All three are listed as standard equipment. HD in FL

Sunnybrook weighs their units as equipped from the factory. We have looked at several, and they have all come in within 4 or 5 hundred pounds of the book weights. Of course, I would still have one weighed to be sure, but I think Brian is blowing smoke. Lon

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi  I need to buy a new truck for work during week, but plan on buying new Sunnybrook 31 ft weight around 15,000.  If you could pick a perfect match what would it be. The idea I had so far is dodge 2500 all heavy duty but what size engine and axle ratio, I will prob go with gas as opposed to deisel due to initial price. any help is greatly appreciated and thanks in advance. If yer gonna go Dodge, you gotta go diesel. With that much 5th wheel, and if you can’t keep the weight below 14,000#, you should go medium duty truck. If you can keep it below 14,000#, you _might_ safely get away with a Chevy Duramax or 8.1 with the Allison tranny. If you try to get away with it, you should never, ever, forget that you are pushing the envelope. We’ve been studying the Sunnybrook 31BWFS and the Chevy Duramax. I wouldn’t order either the truck, or the 5th wheel without seeing a stock unit of each on a scale and doing the math one more time. I’m having difficulty believing Sunnybrook can prove the dry weight of 9735#, and the pin weight of 1875#. If they prove that, within 500# on each, I will believe that we can keep the gross weight below 13,000# and the pin below 2600. I don’t think either of us wants a truck which would wallow under the load, or die on the first mountain pass. Buying the wrong combination could get really expensive. Do your homework.

Don’t worry about a Duramax towing a 13,000 lb 5er having trouble going up or down mountain passes on main highways.  Been there, done that, pass a lot of RVs and semis on the way up and hardly use the brakes on the way down.  We have spent most of the last two summers in Wyoming and Montana. Ron ‘01 Chevy 3500 Crew Cab Longbed ‘01 35′ Alfa Ideal

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The weight of the tongue on that 5er would exceed the payload rating of a 2500, and without checking I strongly suspect the trailer weight would exceed the tow rating. 1900# pin weight does not exceed the payload of a 2500. Lon

It might Lon. If you add in the hitch, passengers and stuff carried in the bed, plus the stuff you can store in the front compartments on the trailer. HD in FL

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Hi   I need to buy a new truck for work during week, but plan on buying new Sunnybrook 31 ft weight around 15,000.   If you could pick a perfect match what would it be. The idea I had so far is dodge 2500 all heavy duty but what size engine and axle ratio, I will prob go with gas as opposed to deisel due to initial price. any help is greatly appreciated and thanks in advance.

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<< I need to buy a new truck for work during week, but plan on buying new Sunnybrook 31 ft weight around 15,000.   If you could pick a perfect match what would it be. Peterbilt 385 w/ C13 engine and Meritor Freedomline 12 speed.  That way you’re well with in the 75% guideline with a GCWR of 60,000 lbs. Tom M

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 I need to buy a new truck for work during week, but plan on buying new Sunnybrook 31 ft weight around 15,000.  If you could pick a perfect match what would it be.

A Sunnybrook  fifth wheel I assume.  Are you sure of the 15,000# I can’t imagine a 31′ trailer weighing that much….. If it truly is 15,000# you might want to look at medium duty trucks. Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm My rig: http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/excella.htm "You only get to choose what you read, not what I write."

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The weight of the tongue on that 5er would exceed the payload rating of a 2500, and without checking I strongly suspect the trailer weight would exceed the tow rating. I think a 3500 dually would be much better adapted to what you want to pull, with large engine and 4.10 rear end. Take a long look at dodge.com, and particularly its ratings section. If you have a short work commute, a diesel would never warm up. Also, you haven’t indicated just how often you think you’d be towing that 5er – if a lot, you’d be much happier with the Cummins.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi   I need to buy a new truck for work during week, but plan on buying new Sunnybrook 31 ft weight around 15,000.   If you could pick a perfect match what would it be. The idea I had so far is dodge 2500 all heavy duty but what size engine and axle ratio, I will prob go with gas as opposed to deisel due to initial price. any help is greatly appreciated and thanks in advance.

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 I need to buy a new truck for work during week, but plan on buying new Sunnybrook 31 ft weight around 15,000. A Sunnybrook  fifth wheel I assume.  Are you sure of the 15,000# I can’t imagine a 31′ trailer weighing that much…..

Their web site shows two 31′ 5ers with a GVWR of 15,000 lbs.  One has a dry weight just under 10,000 lbs and the other is a little over 10,000 lbs.  Both state the dry weights are before options. http://www.sunnybrookrv.com/products/titan/specs/titan_specs_fw.html Ron

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Hi  I need to buy a new truck for work during week, but plan on buying new Sunnybrook 31 ft weight around 15,000.  If you could pick a perfect match what would it be. The idea I had so far is dodge 2500 all heavy duty but what size engine and axle ratio, I will prob go with gas as opposed to deisel due to initial price.

I’d get the 3500.  Check the pin weight of your 5w, you could well go over gvw if you have anything in the truck with a 2500.  I’d get the biggest engine I could, and the 4.10 gears.  Better yet, get a ford v10 or gm’s big v8 with the allison, I don’t think dodge is very competitive without the diesel.

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Their web site shows two 31′ 5ers with a GVWR of 15,000 lbs.  One has a dry weight just under 10,000 lbs and the other is a little over 10,000 lbs.  Both state the dry weights are before options. Ron

Hi Ron, Holy crow, a fifth wheel with a 5,400# "stuff" capacity….. who woulda thought…. Does Janet know about this <g If I was towing that much I’d want a MDT myself. I know I saw it, but that still seems wrong. A trailer that carries half it’s weight in stuff…… Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm My rig: http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/excella.htm "You only get to choose what you read, not what I write."

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Hi Ron, Holy crow, a fifth wheel with a 5,400# "stuff" capacity….. who woulda thought…. Does Janet know about this <g If I was towing that much I’d want a MDT myself. I know I saw it, but that still seems wrong. A trailer that carries half it’s weight in stuff……

Janet checked the web site and noticed that they don’t give axle ratings <g Some of the cc weight would be in propane and water.  Nice holding tank capacity. It didn’t give specs on how much propane, but I’m guessing 2 30# cans.  Even so, that’s an awful lot of stuff.  I don’t think there are enough places on a coach that size to hold that much stuff.  I don’t have that much stuff in my rig <g J The Road Princess Residentially Challenged Spelling and punctuation is up to my editors. I take no responsibility

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Ron, Holy crow, a fifth wheel with a 5,400# "stuff" capacity….. who woulda thought…. Does Janet know about this <g If I was towing that much I’d want a MDT myself. I know I saw it, but that still seems wrong. A trailer that carries half it’s weight in stuff…… Janet checked the web site and noticed that they don’t give axle ratings <g Some of the cc weight would be in propane and water.  Nice holding tank capacity. It didn’t give specs on how much propane, but I’m guessing 2 30# cans.  Even so, that’s an awful lot of stuff.  I don’t think there are enough places on a coach that size to hold that much stuff.  I don’t have that much stuff in my rig <g

All depends on what equipment is optional.  Could be that by the time you get furniture, stove, heater, a/c, etc. you may not have a lot of room for "stuff".  <g Ron

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Hi  I need to buy a new truck for work during week, but plan on buying new Sunnybrook 31 ft weight around 15,000.  If you could pick a perfect match what would it be. The idea I had so far is dodge 2500 all heavy duty but what size engine and axle ratio, I will prob go with gas as opposed to deisel due to initial price. any help is greatly appreciated and thanks in advance.

If yer gonna go Dodge, you gotta go diesel. With that much 5th wheel, and if you can’t keep the weight below 14,000#, you should go medium duty truck. If you can keep it below 14,000#, you _might_ safely get away with a Chevy Duramax or 8.1 with the Allison tranny. If you try to get away with it, you should never, ever, forget that you are pushing the envelope. We’ve been studying the Sunnybrook 31BWFS and the Chevy Duramax. I wouldn’t order either the truck, or the 5th wheel without seeing a stock unit of each on a scale and doing the math one more time. I’m having difficulty believing Sunnybrook can prove the dry weight of 9735#, and the pin weight of 1875#. If they prove that, within 500# on each, I will believe that we can keep the gross weight below 13,000# and the pin below 2600. I don’t think either of us wants a truck which would wallow under the load, or die on the first mountain pass. Buying the wrong combination could get really expensive. Do your homework. Lon

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(Ron Recer) writes: All depends on what equipment is optional.  Could be that by the time you get furniture, stove, heater, a/c, etc. you may not have a lot of room for "stuff". <g Ron

LOL Silly ditz that I am, I assumed they included stuff like cabinets, appliances, the couch…… <g Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm My rig: http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/excella.htm "You only get to choose what you read, not what I write."

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LOL Silly ditz that I am, I assumed they included stuff like cabinets, appliances, the couch…… <g

You would be suprised at what counts as options these days: Microwave Awning Air Conditioner Powered vents Stabilizer jacks I would never buy a unit without the first three options, and you would probably never see a unit at a dealer without those options installed. Yes, even Sunnybrook lists Microwave, A/C, and awning as "options".  I’ll bet there is 1,000lbs of options on most Sunnybrook trailers when they leave the factory. Brian Elfert

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Don’t forget the "optional" roof vents (the kind that the dealer screws up installing).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LOL Silly ditz that I am, I assumed they included stuff like cabinets, appliances, the couch…… <g You would be suprised at what counts as options these days: Microwave Awning Air Conditioner Powered vents Stabilizer jacks I would never buy a unit without the first three options, and you would probably never see a unit at a dealer without those options installed. Yes, even Sunnybrook lists Microwave, A/C, and awning as "options".  I’ll bet there is 1,000lbs of options on most Sunnybrook trailers when they leave the factory. Brian Elfert

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snipped Yes, even Sunnybrook lists Microwave, A/C, and awning as "options".  I’ll bet there is 1,000lbs of options on most Sunnybrook trailers when they leave the factory. Brian Elfert

I just went to Sunnybrooks site. You’re dead wrong on that. All three are listed as standard equipment. HD in FL

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A Sunnybrook  fifth wheel I assume.  Are you sure of the 15,000# I can’t imagine a 31′ trailer weighing that much….. If it truly is 15,000# you might want to look at medium duty trucks. Hunter

GVWR is 15,000 but Lucy would have to load it with rocks to make it weight that much. They start at 9700 plus options. Lon

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The weight of the tongue on that 5er would exceed the payload rating of a 2500, and without checking I strongly suspect the trailer weight would exceed the tow rating.

1900# pin weight does not exceed the payload of a 2500. Lon

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Yes, even Sunnybrook lists Microwave, A/C, and awning as "options".  I’ll bet there is 1,000lbs of options on most Sunnybrook trailers when they leave the factory. Brian Elfert I just went to Sunnybrooks site. You’re dead wrong on that. All three are listed as standard equipment.

Take a look at http://www.sunnybrookrv.com/products/titan/so/titan_so_fw.html The Titan appears to be top of the line from Sunnybrook.  There are five air conditioners listed as optional and I can’t seem to find an A/C listed as standard.  I also don’t see a microwave or awning as standard. Brian Elfert

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<< Holy crow, a fifth wheel with a 5,400# "stuff" capacity….. who woulda thought…. I wanted 5,000 # pounds of GVWR for stuff and that is in addition to propane and water.  (I was going to say liquids but Dogs count as stuff.) Tom M

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, even Sunnybrook lists Microwave, A/C, and awning as "options".  I’ll bet there is 1,000lbs of options on most Sunnybrook trailers when they leave the factory. Brian Elfert I just went to Sunnybrooks site. You’re dead wrong on that. All three are listed as standard equipment. Take a look at http://www.sunnybrookrv.com/products/titan/so/titan_so_fw.html The Titan appears to be top of the line from Sunnybrook.  There are five air conditioners listed as optional and I can’t seem to find an A/C listed as standard.  I also don’t see a microwave or awning as standard. Brian Elfert

I looked at the "bottom" of the line. They are all standard. I went to the Titan line and like you said, they are options. Can’t figure that out. Why would the "cheaper" ones have all the above and not the top line models? HD in FL

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<< It didn’t give specs on how much propane, but I’m guessing 2 30# cans Then some people want 3 40# cans.   Tom M, hoping I won’t have to carry them.

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I am with Lon, you should scale both the truck and trailer, including the pin weight, before buying either, especially if you are considering a 3/4 ton truck. Unfortunately, the real weights are going to be more than the brochure weights.  More info below. Brochure weights vs. Actual Weights Or, Don’t believe everything that you read It can be confusing to try to figure out how big a slide-in camper, trailer, or 5th wheel that a given truck or other vehicle can haul. The brochure may talk in terms of payload or towing capacity, dry weight (the weight of the unit without fluids, people, or personal gear), GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Restriction, the maximum that the vehicle should weigh loaded), or GCVWR (Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Restriction, the maximum that the vehicle and the trailer should weigh combined).  In most cases, the vehicle tow capacity is a function of options such as axle ratio.  A little study should help all but the most math-challenged understand these numbers. However, there is a separate source of confusion and error that comes not from all the technical terms and calculations, but from the brochures.  Generally, the brochures give the most optimistic possible weight ratings for their units.  That is, the brochure refers to the payload, towing capacity, or dry weight of a stripped unit with no options.  Obviously, most vehicles, trailers or RVs are sold with options, and options add weight.  The difference between the brochure weight and the actual scale weight can be hundreds of pounds. For example, my F350, according to the dealer book, should have had a payload of 5080 pounds.  (The Ford brochure listed a wide range of possible payloads).  When I put the truck on a scale, I had only a 4300 pound payload, a 700 pound difference.  (GVWR – truck scale weight = actual payload).  The loss of towing capacity was about the same, around 600 pounds relative to the brochure, 10,600 vs 10,000 pounds towing capacity. My Bigfoot camper had a brochure weight of 2600 pounds, a build document that said, with options, my unit should weigh 2900 pounds, and an actual scale weight closer to 3100 pounds. How much of the difference between the brochure weight and the actual weight was due to options, and how much was basically a lie on the part of the manufacturer?  I suspect some of each, but you would need to scale a lot of units, including some with minimal options, to be sure.  Some people say that I should not say that the brochures lie, that the weasel words in the brochures talk about "maximum payload" or "typical weights".  Let’s just say that the brochures exaggerate quite a bit.  There are some class A RV’s that have an overloaded axle as soon as the driver and spouse get in!  (As documented in some of the magazine reviews).  Ronald Reagan said trust but verify; I just say you should weigh the unit, to find out the degree of untruth. The important thing to keep in mind is that the brochure weights are not accurate, and the inaccuracy will always be in the direction of making it look like you can handle a bigger RV than you really can. On paper, I should have had a truck/camper combination with plenty of spare capacity, and I expected that I would be nowhere near the truck GVWR of 11,200 pounds.  In practice, loaded for a trip, I am within a couple of hundred pounds of 11,200 pounds, over or under, depending on the day. Many people say that you should not plan to get the biggest RV that the brochures say that you can tow, and instead plan for 75% of the maximum for safety.  I would have to agree with this advice, based on my experience.  Even if you think, based on brochures, that you will only be at 75% of the maximum, that 25% of "excess capacity" can be quickly used up by the difference between scale weight and brochure weight, fluids, personal gear, people, and other factors. In my case, I lost more than 20% of the brochure payload before I put anything in the RV, just because the brochures were not accurate, so perhaps the 75% rule is not conservative enough. If you choose to go with a unit at more than 75% of the maximum, then you should find a certified scale at a truck stop or gravel pit. Weigh your truck (or a similar unit), and the RV (or a similar unit), and add up the total weight.  Then add the weight of people, fluids (water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon, propane around 4 pounds per gallon), and personal gear.  The total weight of truck, trailer, people and everything else should not exceed the GCVWR.  If you are looking at a slide-in camper, the total weight of truck, camper, people, and everything else should not exceed the GVWR. If you are looking at a 5th wheel or a trailer, you should also check the pin weight (tongue weight on trailers).  The towed vehicle’s pin weight or tongue weight adds weight to the truck, and goes against the truck GVWR. The weight of the truck, people, personal gear in the truck, and the pin or tongue weight  should not exceed the truck GVWR. In some cases, especially with 5th wheels being towed by single rear wheel trucks, you can be within the GCVWR, but exceeding the GVWR, due to pin weight, which can be as high as 25% of the 5th wheel total weight.  Tongue weight on conventional trailers can be as high as 15% of the total trailer weight.  Tow vehicles have a maximum tongue weight, specified by the tow vehicle manufacturer. Anyway, do not take the brochures as the gospel truth, especially when it comes to weight.  Either get an RV 25% or more under the truck capacity, or put everything on the scale before you buy, including your family and pets. One other warning which is perhaps obvious.  Ignore any statements by salemen that "such and such a truck can easily handle such and such RV."  Salemen are in the business of selling, and unfortunately tend to say and think things like "You don’t need to pay any attention to the vehicle manufacturer’s recommendations."  They often talk total nonsense, like "You can tow a 30 foot 5th wheel with a half ton truck, just buy some overload springs."  Obvious, but worth mentioning. Richard Ferguson May 9, 2003 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip We’ve been studying the Sunnybrook 31BWFS and the Chevy Duramax. I wouldn’t order either the truck, or the 5th wheel without seeing a stock unit of each on a scale and doing the math one more time. I’m having difficulty believing Sunnybrook can prove the dry weight of 9735#, and the pin weight of 1875#. If they prove that, within 500# on each, I will believe that we can keep the gross weight below 13,000# and the pin below 2600. I don’t think either of us wants a truck which would wallow under the load, or die on the first mountain pass. Buying the wrong combination could get really expensive. Do your homework. Lon

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Question:

Here is the real info: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/section-31.html

Response:

a high percentage of wall outlet testers are defective, so you may want to use something like a hair dryer or plug-in radio as a

back-up. Sorry, but the final two lines confuse me; in what way would a hair dryer or plug-in radio act as a back-up (for an outlet tester)?

If an outlet tester says that an outlet is dead but a hair dryer or radio work when plugged into that outlet, then you know that the tester is defective.  Of course, you still need a tester or meter to tell if the outlet is properly grounded and if neutral and hot are reversed. Which leads to the question, what *kind* of outlet tester (that so many of re defective)? Are you talking about those three-prong things (ie for grounded plugs) with the three lights that show red or green for good or bad or in-between or something?

Yes, but I don’t know the brands of the good ones.

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           Nothing replaces a properly wired and grounded electrical system. They don’t call it "Safety Ground" for nothing. It would be wise (not inexpensive), and much safer for you and you family to have you wiring upgrades and properly wired. Installing a GFCS is only part of the complete solution. GFCI’s work best with a proerly wired system. Just remember that bandaids are for small/temporary wounds, not for fixing problems. Besafe and have a Happy New Year.

When people say "get a good ground", how can you tell if your grounded-wall-socket’s ground is "good enough"? Like for an air-conditioner, a washer, etc? Thanks, David

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: :    Nothing replaces a properly wired and grounded electrical system. : They don’t call it "Safety Ground" for nothing. It would be wise (not : inexpensive), and much safer for you and you family to have you wiring : upgrades and properly wired. Installing a GFCS is only part of the complete : solution. GFCI’s work best with a proerly wired system. Just remember that : bandaids are for small/temporary wounds, not for fixing problems. Besafe : and have a Happy New Year. : : When people say "get a good ground", how can you : tell if your grounded-wall-socket’s ground is : "good enough"?     Well, what do you want it to do?  You want it to conduct enough juice to trip the breaker with very low resistance.   If you measure with an ohm meter, it might read low ohms, but high voltage and current can burn up that low resistance path.   So you really need to test it under "real" conditions.     I believe I read something about using a megger to test ground.   Look it up on google. : : Like for an air-conditioner, a washer, etc? : : Thanks, : : David : : :

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t think that you should try to install the built-in type yourself because, frankly, you don’t seem to understand electricity well enough — the fact that you asked about using a surge supressor for protection against electrical shock is rather frightening.  I’m not writing this to be critical but so you don’t kill yourself. I already replaced one.  I bought a little tester.  Tested it.   Turned off the power.  Tested it again several times to make sure no current was there.  Installed the GFCI.  Turned the power back on.   Everything worked out fine.  I don’t necessarily think I should be discouraged from doing it again. My apologies.  I underestimated both your skill and level your level of caution. By the way, a high percentage of wall outlet testers are defective, so you may want to use something like a hair dryer or plug-in radio as a back-up.

Sorry, but the final two lines confuse me; in what way would a hair dryer or plug-in radio act as a back-up (for an outlet tester)? Which leads to the question, what *kind* of outlet tester (that so many of are defective)? Are you talking about those three-prong things (ie for grounded plugs) with the three lights that show red or green for good or bad or in-between or something? Thanks, David

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I don’t think that you should try to install the built-in type yourself because, frankly, you don’t seem to understand electricity well enough — the fact that you asked about using a surge supressor for protection against electrical shock is rather frightening.  I’m not writing this to be critical but so you don’t kill yourself. I already replaced one.  I bought a little tester.  Tested it.   Turned off the power.  Tested it again several times to make sure no current was there.  Installed the GFCI.  Turned the power back on.   Everything worked out fine.  I don’t necessarily think I should be discouraged from doing it again.

My apologies.  I underestimated both your skill and level your level of caution. By the way, a high percentage of wall outlet testers are defective, so you may want to use something like a hair dryer or plug-in radio as a back-up.

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On 01 Jan 2003, The voices in the head of Eric Lee Green uttered these words to the inhabitants of alt.home.repair. I do agree that getting a good electrical ground would be far preferable. It would also be far more expensive, and no safer than using a GFCI if a GFCI will work. If the GFCI does not work, if it trips due to the inductive loads… (shrug) just move it somewhere else (like the bathroom) and spend the bucks to pull new wire to the outlets in question, big deal, huh?

        Actually, YES. It IS a big deal. While GFCI’s are acceptable to replace a w-wire non grounded receptacle, it is not a real fix for having a properly grounded system or both. This is a life safety issue here. — Robert S. Ely  (Bob) New Lisbon Developmental Center     Communications Systems Technician-3 Work Phone:      1-609-894-4057     Work FAX:        1-609-726-0357 ICQ:             33390750           Yahoo Messenger: rsely74 Check out my photos: http://www.shuttercity.com/ShowGallery.cfm?AcctID=4359

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ruminated:     They say they need to be grounded so if there is an internal electrical fault it will not kill you.  If that is not important, then don’t worry.     Both appliances are not good candidate for GFCI as they tend to give false positive and trip.  Surge Suppressors will not help.  You really should get a good electrical ground. I’ve heard this said, but there is really only one way to find out, and that’s by wiring them to a GFCI. Modern-day GFCI’s are pretty good about handling false positives created by inductive loads, the technology has advanced quite a bit from the early days when almost anything inductive would trip the things.

More to the point, "modern" appliances don’t have leakage paths that would trip a GFCI.   Actually, inductive loads per se should not trip a GFCI.   A load that generates high voltage transients might as the transients might more easily find a ground path than the regular voltage. I have a washing machine on a grounded GFCI controlled outlet.   In 5+ years it has not tripped.   Not having a ground further decreases the chance of a false trip.   In our previous place, our 15 year old ice box would false trip about twice a year.   Its "modern" replacement never caused a GFCI trip. Were my washer to suddenly start tripping the GFCI I would like it is a "clue" that it has a leak!

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I don’t think that you should try to install the built-in type yourself because, frankly, you don’t seem to understand electricity well enough — the fact that you asked about using a surge supressor for protection against electrical shock is rather frightening.  I’m not writing this to be critical but so you don’t kill yourself.

I already replaced one.  I bought a little tester.  Tested it.  Turned off the power.  Tested it again several times to make sure no current was there. Installed the GFCI.  Turned the power back on.  Everything worked out fine. I don’t necessarily think I should be discouraged from doing it again.

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On 01 Jan 2003, The voices in the head of Sanibush uttered these words to the inhabitants of alt.home.repair. I recently bought 2 new appliances(washing machine & treadmill).  Both of the manuals say that they must be connected to grounded outlets. Why is this exactly? Of course my outlets are not grounded.  I could hire an electrician to change them, but I was wondering if using surge protectors or switching them to GFCI’s would suffice as an alternative? Thanks.

        Nothing replaces a properly wired and grounded electrical system. They don’t call it "Safety Ground" for nothing. It would be wise (not inexpensive), and much safer for you and you family to have you wiring upgrades and properly wired. Installing a GFCS is only part of the complete solution. GFCI’s work best with a proerly wired system. Just remember that bandaids are for small/temporary wounds, not for fixing problems. Besafe and have a Happy New Year. — Robert S. Ely  (Bob) New Lisbon Developmental Center     Communications Systems Technician-3 Work Phone:      1-609-894-4057     Work FAX:        1-609-726-0357 ICQ:             33390750           Yahoo Messenger: rsely74 Check out my photos: http://www.shuttercity.com/ShowGallery.cfm?AcctID=4359

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Do you know what the "G" is in GFCI, and where a surge protector sends the extra current?  Hint, the word you are looking for is "ground." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently bought 2 new appliances(washing machine & treadmill).  Both of the manuals say that they must be connected to grounded outlets.  Why is this exactly? Of course my outlets are not grounded.  I could hire an electrician to change them, but I was wondering if using surge protectors or switching them to GFCI’s would suffice as an alternative? Thanks.

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Besides, it might not work…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  do agree that getting a good electrical ground would be far preferable. It would also be far more expensive, and no safer than using a GFCI if a GFCI will work. If the GFCI does not work, if it trips due to the inductive loads… (shrug) just move it somewhere else (like the bathroom) and spend the bucks to pull new wire to the outlets in question, big deal, huh? A good ground is safer than a GFI alone and both are safer still.  With a GFCI receptacle that is not grounded the appliance can be energized to a touch potential of 120 volts.  When you touch it and the current starts to flow through you the GFI opens so quickly that the current doesn’t flow long enough to stop your heart as long as you are older than a toddler and younger than 55 to 75 years of age depending on your genetics.  Until you are old enough to have developed a stable cardiac rhythm and once you reach a certain age it becomes easier to destabilize your heart rhythm.  Even if your heart is in good health your physical reaction to the electric shock can lead to injury. With a grounded appliance the fault to the exposed metal causes an excess current flow that will open the Over Current Protective Device (OCPD).  Since the contact surface is bonded to the service neutral conductor and to the grounding electrode conductor the touch potential during the time it takes the OCPD to open is unlikely to rise above the 30 volts needed to overcome your skin resistance.  In fact the fault will likely have cleared before you ever come in contact with the appliance. When you add a GFI to that outlet or circuit the fault is cleared even more quickly so that the only way you perceive the event is by hearing the click of the GFI opening. — Tom

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I recently bought 2 new appliances(washing machine & treadmill).  Both of the manuals say that they must be connected to grounded outlets.  Why is this exactly? Of course my outlets are not grounded.  I could hire an electrician to change them, but I was wondering if using surge protectors or switching them to GFCI’s would suffice as an alternative?

You need grounding because water and electricity can be a deadly combination. Water spills and spashes from a washer, and people using treadmills sweat or spill their drinks. Surge supressors provide NO protection whatsoever against electrical shock because all they do is block excessive or rapidly changing voltage, the kind you find in surges.  You absolutely need to either ground the outlets or install GFCIs on them.  Grounding offers the best protection because GFCIs sometimes fail (2 did on me, one in the off position, the other in the on position), and they don’t trip until about 5 milliamps, which is a bit painful. You can buy plug-in GFCIs from hardware stores, home centers, and electrical supplies for $10-$35.  I don’t think that you should try to install the built-in type yourself because, frankly, you don’t seem to understand electricity well enough — the fact that you asked about using a surge supressor for protection against electrical shock is rather frightening.  I’m not writing this to be critical but so you don’t kill yourself. If an appliance develops a fault and leaks current to its chassis, either because the insulation broke down internally or it got wet, a grounded power cord and grounded wall outlet will cause that current to flow safely to ground.  A GFCI provides protection by detecting electrical leakage (imbalance in electrical flow between the two AC prongs, indicating that some leaked off to ground) and shuts off the current.

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    I agree that it would be better than nothing, but when it comes to wiring, I follow the rules.  I like my life and I want to be around a while longer. — Joseph E. Meehan 26 + 6 = 1  It’s Irish Math – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ruminated:     They say they need to be grounded so if there is an internal electrical fault it will not kill you.  If that is not important, then don’t worry.     Both appliances are not good candidate for GFCI as they tend to give false positive and trip.  Surge Suppressors will not help.  You really should get a good electrical ground. I’ve heard this said, but there is really only one way to find out, and that’s by wiring them to a GFCI. Modern-day GFCI’s are pretty good about handling false positives created by inductive loads, the technology has advanced quite a bit from the early days when almost anything inductive would trip the things. I do agree that getting a good electrical ground would be far preferable. It would also be far more expensive, and no safer than using a GFCI if a GFCI will work. If the GFCI does not work, if it trips due to the inductive loads… (shrug) just move it somewhere else (like the bathroom) and spend the bucks to pull new wire to the outlets in question, big deal, huh? — Eric Lee Green    GnuPG public key at http://badtux.org/eric/eric.gpg —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

 do agree that getting a good electrical ground would be far preferable. It would also be far more expensive, and no safer than using a GFCI if a GFCI will work. If the GFCI does not work, if it trips due to the inductive loads… (shrug) just move it somewhere else (like the bathroom) and spend the bucks to pull new wire to the outlets in question, big deal, huh?

A good ground is safer than a GFI alone and both are safer still.  With a GFCI receptacle that is not grounded the appliance can be energized to a touch potential of 120 volts.  When you touch it and the current starts to flow through you the GFI opens so quickly that the current doesn’t flow long enough to stop your heart as long as you are older than a toddler and younger than 55 to 75 years of age depending on your genetics.  Until you are old enough to have developed a stable cardiac rhythm and once you reach a certain age it becomes easier to destabilize your heart rhythm.  Even if your heart is in good health your physical reaction to the electric shock can lead to injury. With a grounded appliance the fault to the exposed metal causes an excess current flow that will open the Over Current Protective Device (OCPD).  Since the contact surface is bonded to the service neutral conductor and to the grounding electrode conductor the touch potential during the time it takes the OCPD to open is unlikely to rise above the 30 volts needed to overcome your skin resistance.  In fact the fault will likely have cleared before you ever come in contact with the appliance. When you add a GFI to that outlet or circuit the fault is cleared even more quickly so that the only way you perceive the event is by hearing the click of the GFI opening. — Tom

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 If my washing machine outlet was not grounded, I would feel reasonably safe clamping a ground wire to my copper cold water line from the washing machine and dryer.  But I happen to know that I have continous copper into the ground and an electrical service box properly grounded, while you may not. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently bought 2 new appliances(washing machine & treadmill).  Both of the manuals say that they must be connected to grounded outlets.  Why is this exactly? Of course my outlets are not grounded.  I could hire an electrician to change them, but I was wondering if using surge protectors or switching them to GFCI’s would suffice as an alternative? Thanks.

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    That also can cause other problems, like live faucets. — Joseph E. Meehan 26 + 6 = 1  It’s Irish Math

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  If my washing machine outlet was not grounded, I would feel reasonably safe clamping a ground wire to my copper cold water line from the washing machine and dryer.  But I happen to know that I have continous copper into the ground and an electrical service box properly grounded, while you may not. I recently bought 2 new appliances(washing machine & treadmill).  Both of the manuals say that they must be connected to grounded outlets.  Why is this exactly? Of course my outlets are not grounded.  I could hire an electrician to change them, but I was wondering if using surge protectors or switching them to GFCI’s would suffice as an alternative? Thanks.

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    They say they need to be grounded so if there is an internal electrical fault it will not kill you.  If that is not important, then don’t worry.     Both appliances are not good candidate for GFCI as they tend to give false positive and trip.  Surge Suppressors will not help.  You really should get a good electrical ground. — Joseph E. Meehan 26 + 6 = 1  It’s Irish Math

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently bought 2 new appliances(washing machine & treadmill).  Both of the manuals say that they must be connected to grounded outlets.  Why is this exactly? Of course my outlets are not grounded.  I could hire an electrician to change them, but I was wondering if using surge protectors or switching them to GFCI’s would suffice as an alternative? Thanks.

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A grounded outlet affords safety when using equipment that requires touching metal portions of it.  Generally, to install a grounded outlet requires the run of a new circuit from the circuit breaker panel to the new outlet.  You cannot just replace the two prong outlet to a three prong, it does not make it grounded except in very rare cases where the existing installation behind the wall is done in unconventional methods. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently bought 2 new appliances(washing machine & treadmill).  Both of the manuals say that they must be connected to grounded outlets.  Why is this exactly? Of course my outlets are not grounded.  I could hire an electrician to change them, but I was wondering if using surge protectors or switching them to GFCI’s would suffice as an alternative? Thanks.

Response:

    They say they need to be grounded so if there is an internal electrical fault it will not kill you.  If that is not important, then don’t worry.     Both appliances are not good candidate for GFCI as they tend to give false positive and trip.  Surge Suppressors will not help.  You really should get a good electrical ground.

I’ve heard this said, but there is really only one way to find out, and that’s by wiring them to a GFCI. Modern-day GFCI’s are pretty good about handling false positives created by inductive loads, the technology has advanced quite a bit from the early days when almost anything inductive would trip the things. I do agree that getting a good electrical ground would be far preferable. It would also be far more expensive, and no safer than using a GFCI if a GFCI will work. If the GFCI does not work, if it trips due to the inductive loads… (shrug) just move it somewhere else (like the bathroom) and spend the bucks to pull new wire to the outlets in question, big deal, huh? — Eric Lee Green    GnuPG public key at http://badtux.org/eric/eric.gpg —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

I recently bought 2 new appliances(washing machine & treadmill).  Both of the manuals say that they must be connected to grounded outlets.  Why is this exactly? Of course my outlets are not grounded.  I could hire an electrician to change them, but I was wondering if using surge protectors or switching them to GFCI’s would suffice as an alternative? Thanks.

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Question:

Hi, all- I’m looking at installing a solar PV system on our house that would also be tied into the grid (gotta have that hefty rebate through the state). My understanding is that being connected to the grid allows your meter to run backwards when you are generating more than you are using and that at night you use electricity from the grid, as needed. But what about the times that you are generating electricity (from the PV panels) but aren’t generating enough to meet your demands (say, you’re running the air conditioner, microwave and electric water heater simultaneously)? Does the grid pickup the slack?  And does it do so *instantly*, so that when a big motor starts you don’t have circuit breakers popping? kickaha

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Hi, all- I’m looking at installing a solar PV system on our house that would also be tied into the grid (gotta have that hefty rebate through the state). My understanding is that being connected to the grid allows your meter to run backwards when you are generating more than you are using and that at night you use electricity from the grid, as needed.

If you’re in a net-metering state, this is exactly how it works. But what about the times that you are generating electricity (from the PV panels) but aren’t generating enough to meet your demands (say, you’re running the air conditioner, microwave and electric water heater simultaneously)? Does the grid pickup the slack?  And does it do so *instantly*, so that when a big motor starts you don’t have circuit breakers popping?

The grid-tie inverter system and the utility operate in parallel.  The inverter puts out as much power as the PV system can supply, and the utility carries the rest.  It is like a continuous transition.  If you start one more load, the meter starts running forward, and when the AC switches off, the meter stops and begins running in reverse. There is no transfer switch or anything that has to operate back and forth. Think of it like having your PV system connected with a huge, nearly infinite battery system.  When you need a lot more than the PV can handle (or a cloud passes by), the huge ‘battery’ called the grid puts in whatever power is needed to maintain the household voltage.  When the PV is putting out more than the house is using, the excess charges the ‘battery’.  Your electric meter is right there on the cables going to/from the ‘battery’. Grid tie inverters are designed so they won’t try to carry the whole house, but rather they will put out only the amount of power the PV system is supplying.  The inverter current isn’t determined by the load so much as the PV supply.  So it won’t pop any circuit breakers (*if* it is all setup correctly by a competent installer). daestrom

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Excellent analogy. Thanks! kickaha

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But what about the times that you are generating electricity (from the PV panels) but aren’t generating enough to meet your demands (say, you’re running the air conditioner, microwave and electric water heater simultaneously)? Does the grid pickup the slack?  And does it do so *instantly*

Yes, thanks to Mr. Kirchoff.

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Question:

A thick-skinned and good-natured troll, but a troll nonetheless. But that’s just my opinion, of course. "Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be."   [A. Lincoln] Will KD3XR

Thanks for the compliment Catmobile ATC Recreational Vehicle, Inc. www.atcrv.com

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Well, since I can disagree with anyone here – including Lon – maybe I should amplify on why I feel "Catmobile" is a troll

Carefull, Will. Catmobile is apt to cut loose from his "Gun turret" (designed to blast "rv robbers"), and shoot your argument down. Lon

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I’m thinking about installing a cat deck on the roof of my class-C motor home by clamping it to the sides and bottom parts of the cabover section so I won’t have to drill holes in the roof (except to install a hatch). The deck can be made of wood and metal screens and will have one or two pieces that extend downwards on each side of the cabover section of the motor home. It can be about the same height as the air conditioner but I will have to make sure that I have enough room to open the hatch. Or should I use metal framing instead of wood so it will last longer ? Thanks, Catmobile

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Or should I use metal framing instead of wood so it will last longer ?

Hunter

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Or should I use metal framing instead of wood so it will last longer ? Hunter

That’s alunimum, ask Viola. Hugh

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Or should I use metal framing instead of wood so it will last longer ? Hunter That’s alunimum, ask Viola. Hugh

Bububut, Alistair Cook always called it Aluminium!

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because he is not getting enough attention lately I’m thinking about installing a cat deck on the roof of my class-C motor home by clamping it to the sides and bottom parts of the cabover section so I won’t have to drill holes in the roof (except to install a hatch). The deck can be made of wood and metal screens and will have one or two pieces that extend downwards on each side of the cabover section of the motor home. It can be about the same height as the air conditioner but I will have to make sure that I have enough room to open the hatch. Or should I use metal framing instead of wood so it will last longer ?

Ladies & Gents, this is the very same bozo who imagines himself qualified to design & build a 3-bedroom fifth wheel trailer.  IMO he is approaching the record as the most persistent troll in this NG. Will Sill KD3XR "I get tired of explaining the obvious to the oblivious" [bill horne]

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Or should I use metal framing instead of wood so it will last longer ? Hunter That’s alunimum, ask Viola. Hugh Bububut, Alistair Cook always called it Aluminium!

IIRC, that was okay. Isn’t that the way it’s spelled in LimeyLand? Hugh

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Ladies & Gents, this is the very same bozo who imagines himself qualified to design & build a 3-bedroom fifth wheel trailer.  IMO he is approaching the record as the most persistent troll in this NG. Will Sill KD3XR

Ladies and Gents, While I like and respect Will Sill, he has completely missed the mark on this one and seems to have a fractured funny bone. Lon, who thinks Catmobile  has an exceptional sense of humor which floats right over Will’s head.

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Ladies & Gents, this is the very same bozo who imagines himself qualified to design & build a 3-bedroom fifth wheel trailer.  IMO he is approaching the record as the most persistent troll in this NG. Will Sill KD3XR Ladies and Gents, While I like and respect Will Sill, he has completely missed the mark on this one and seems to have a fractured funny bone. Lon, who thinks Catmobile  has an exceptional sense of humor which floats right over Will’s head.

Thanks Lon. I don’t know why Will would suggest I’m trolling when I have already published pictures of the other things I’ve built and installed for my cats in my motor home. BTW, if I use aluminum for framing should I keep it separated from steel parts such as brackets, nuts and bolts, etc. ? Catmobile ATC Recreational Vehicle, Inc. www.atcrv.com

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Bububut, Alistair Cook always called it Aluminium! IIRC, that was okay. Isn’t that the way it’s spelled in LimeyLand? Hugh

I used to spell it that way until a few years ago. Catmobile ATC Recreational Vehicle, Inc. www.atcrv.com

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Yrs trly  recently wrote these words: Ladies & Gents, this is the very same bozo who imagines himself qualified to design & build a 3-bedroom fifth wheel trailer.  IMO he is approaching the record as the most persistent troll in this NG.

Ladies and Gents, While I like and respect Will Sill, he has completely missed the mark on this one and seems to have a fractured funny bone. Lon, who thinks Catmobile  has an exceptional sense of humor which floats right over Will’s head.

Well, since I can disagree with anyone here – including Lon – maybe I should amplify on why I feel "Catmobile" is a troll.   First, as an rv designer he has repeatedly demonstrated even more incompetence than the worst of others already in the business – who at least do not try to build a "3-bedroom" fiver 30′ long.   Next, while his stuff is indeed laughable in the sense of being too absurd for rational response, it is "funny" to me only in the sense that watching a 3-yr-old try to drive an airplane is funny.   Finally, his sensa humah (if that’s what it really is) is so juvenile it doesn’t rise above the groan level. Lacking a scintilla of sense about spacial relationships; having a newbie’s appreciation of the use of rv’s, and starved for the most basic understanding of choice of materials, he comes across as someone drying for attention – thus a classic troll.  A thick-skinned and good-natured troll, but a troll nonetheless. But that’s just my opinion, of course. "Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be."   [A. Lincoln] Will KD3XR

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BTW, if I use aluminum for framing should I keep it separated from steel parts such as brackets, nuts and bolts, etc. ? Catmobile ATC Recreational Vehicle, Inc. www.atcrv.com

        In theory- yes. It will cause problems down the line. In practice it is hard to do, though. — Chris Bryant Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com

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Question:

I recently researched the same topic for an air-conditioner rebuild in my home. Very high quality air intake filters are fairly expensive. Depending on the dustiness of your house, you may need to replace them every 30-45 days at approx $12 each (e.g., 3M Filtrete). Add that up, and you’ll probably come up with a number quite a bit higher than the cost of the filters for the dedicated central air cleaners. It may only take a few years to defray the initial cost of the central air cleaners. Plus, you’ll have to deal with the removal of a very dusty filter every few weeks if you go with the intake filter solution. That was really the kicker for me — I was tired of pulling out that filter (and getting an allergy attack) every month or two. It will be a hell of a lot easier to let our AC repair service do it once per year (it’s part of our yearly service contract). — ** IT Problem Dispatcher: Engineering, Sciences, Business Serv. **

We just got an estimate on installing a central A/C unit (See separete posting in misc.consumers.house). The contractor gave us the option of installing an Aprilaire 2200 (apparently identical to the Space Gard 2200) media air cleaner at a cost of $325 per floor (we will have separate central A/Cs on each floor; the first floor already had A/C when we recently bought this house). My wife and I both suffer from

…

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Steve, I just had the 2200 installed with my new heat pump in March.  The 2200 is outside with the HP unit and replaces all of the return air  filters that normally are inside of the house.  I can’t really tell any difference in air quality or dust control in the house and I am suspicious that there will be a build up of dust in the duct work since the dust has to travel all the way outside before being filtered. good luck in your search! dan

Response:

We just got an estimate on installing a central A/C unit (See separete posting in misc.consumers.house). The contractor gave us the option of installing an Aprilaire 2200 (apparently identical to the Space Gard 2200) media air cleaner at a cost of $325 per floor (we will have separate central A/Cs on each floor; the first floor already had A/C when we recently bought this house). My wife and I both suffer from allergies, so having clean air is definitely a good thing. We currently use a Vornado room HEPA filter in our bedroom (we haven’t moved into the new house yet). What I’m wondering is: can’t you just buy HEPA filters in place of the regular intake filter? Does the Aprilaire unit get you something extra? The cost seems a bit high for what is essentially a box (the filters themselves are relatively cheap, about $75 for two). How well with this filter in relation to the room filter? Any advice or assistance is greatly appreciated. Please respond here, Don’t reply directly to the posting address, because I have pretty much abandoned this email address due to excessive spam. Thanks, Steve

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Question:

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: : :I have many driving stories. Last Tuesday was not the day to share them. : :LOL, : :Meryl : : I`m cracking up thinking about this! You were right in sparing poor Pete : the gory details ) We are all thankful she spared him! : : Jackie : ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~ :

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– …

: : :Jackie, : :I do this sort of stuff all the time. Ask PJ about me stopping at a green : :light? I didn’t tell him I’ve done it before. : :love Meryl : : LOL!! Poor guy, getting on a plane and driving with you all in one day Not to mention a certain person making him miss connecting flights. <G : )) ~~~ : : Jackie : ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~ :

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: : :What is new with everyone? : : : :I hope everyone is doing well…….  ;-) : : Dear Cheryl, : : Nice to see you around again!! Nice to be home(busy though if you can imagine) : actually I misplaced my brain and lost my mind a few days ago ) Things : coffee yesterday and then wondered why there was no coffee in the pot yet : the machine, it doesn`t happen all by itself??? )) I had no idea though a certain person has seen me very scatterbrained lately LOL I will have to share the plumbing story someday…… : Take care and I hope you are having fun!! Fun and very happy….. <s xoxo {{{{ Jackie }}}}} : {{{{{Cheryl}}}}} : : Jackie : ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~ :

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:Think of us poor, single, folks. We never call our own numbers, because if :we are not there, who is there to call? :Boyd {{{{{Boyd}}}}} You could call your wonderful children! Jackie ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~

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:Jackie, :I do this sort of stuff all the time. Ask PJ about me stopping at a green :light? I didn’t tell him I’ve done it before. :love Meryl LOL!! Poor guy, getting on a plane and driving with you all in one day )) ~~~ Jackie ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~

I have many driving stories. Last Tuesday was not the day to share them. LOL, Meryl

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:I have many driving stories. Last Tuesday was not the day to share them. :LOL, :Meryl I`m cracking up thinking about this! You were right in sparing poor Pete the gory details ) Jackie ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~

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:I have many driving stories. Last Tuesday was not the day to share them. :LOL, :Meryl I`m cracking up thinking about this! You were right in sparing poor Pete the gory details ) Jackie ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~

Nor was in the time to share some of my flying stories! love Meryl

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It’s like a "GoodHousekeeping" magazine with luscious food pictures on the cover and diet tips on the inside Love Cathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cathy, ROFLMAO – I am truly happy that I wasn’t drinking anything when I read this post. It’s HYSTERICAL!!!  (Chip reads girlie magazines???? – I missed that one…) I am saving this post for a day when I need a good laugh!!! smiles, Elise Nope. Dot said I had a subscription to Woman’s Day magazine so I wouldn’t have to pick up the October issue with Cathy’s photo shoot in it. I don’t believe I’ve ever read Woman’s Day.  What’s it about? Chip Philip has a tooth ache and got a grant to do another book I had a photo shoot in 100 degree weather Chip reads girly magazines Dot is being naughty Stamps in the US go up to .37 tomorrow LM is full of gas Tony reminded us that Christmas is not too far away Mason Barge laughed at Mark B’s male bashing joke A new face was added to the gallery Graff found his dream lady decorating thing. Jackie almost blew up her kitchen and forgot her phone # again Love Cathy What is new with everyone? I hope everyone is doing well…….  ;-) C — …

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regenerate. Love

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :Jackie almost blew up her kitchen and forgot her phone # again : :Love :Cathy ROFL!! I nearly choked when I read this ) When you say that I forgot my phone number again…..do you remember last Summer when I was trying to get a hold of my Mother and was getting upset because the phone was busy for many hours only to find out I was calling P.S. I was asked my phone number today and remembered it!! Jackie ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Philip has a tooth ache and got a grant to do another book I had a photo shoot in 100 degree weather Chip reads girly magazines Dot is being naughty Stamps in the US go up to .37 tomorrow LM is full of gas Tony reminded us that Christmas is not too far away Mason Barge laughed at Mark B’s male bashing joke A new face was added to the gallery Graff found his dream lady thing. Jackie almost blew up her kitchen and forgot her phone # again Love Cathy

ROFLMAO! By far the best laugh of the day. My toothache is over. No insults please ) P. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is new with everyone? I hope everyone is doing well…….  ;-) C — …

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It’s like a "GoodHousekeeping" magazine with luscious food pictures on the cover and diet tips on the inside Love Cathy

Doesn’t sound like my kind of magazine. Chip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cathy, ROFLMAO – I am truly happy that I wasn’t drinking anything when I read this post. It’s HYSTERICAL!!!  (Chip reads girlie magazines???? – I missed that one…) I am saving this post for a day when I need a good laugh!!! smiles, Elise Nope. Dot said I had a subscription to Woman’s Day magazine so I wouldn’t have to pick up the October issue with Cathy’s photo shoot in it. I don’t believe I’ve ever read Woman’s Day.  What’s it about? Chip Philip has a tooth ache and got a grant to do another book I had a photo shoot in 100 degree weather Chip reads girly magazines Dot is being naughty Stamps in the US go up to .37 tomorrow LM is full of gas Tony reminded us that Christmas is not too far away Mason Barge laughed at Mark B’s male bashing joke A new face was added to the gallery Graff found his dream lady decorating thing. Jackie almost blew up her kitchen and forgot her phone # again Love Cathy What is new with everyone? I hope everyone is doing well…….  ;-) C — …

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:Jackie, :I do this sort of stuff all the time. Ask PJ about me stopping at a green :light? I didn’t tell him I’ve done it before. :love Meryl LOL!! Poor guy, getting on a plane and driving with you all in one day )) ~~~ Jackie ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~

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Liz, I really do like "Hershey Highway"…lol! smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Philip has a tooth ache and got a grant to do another book I had a photo shoot in 100 degree weather Chip reads girly magazines Dot is being naughty Stamps in the US go up to .37 tomorrow LM is full of gas Tony reminded us that Christmas is not too far away Mason Barge laughed at Mark B’s male bashing joke A new face was added to the gallery Graff found his dream lady thing. Jackie almost blew up her kitchen and forgot her phone # again Love Cathy What is new with everyone? I hope everyone is doing well…….  ;-) C — …

Response:

Cathy, ROFLMAO – I am truly happy that I wasn’t drinking anything when I read this post. It’s HYSTERICAL!!!  (Chip reads girlie magazines???? – I missed that one…) I am saving this post for a day when I need a good laugh!!! smiles, Elise

Nope. Dot said I had a subscription to Woman’s Day magazine so I wouldn’t have to pick up the October issue with Cathy’s photo shoot in it. I don’t believe I’ve ever read Woman’s Day.  What’s it about? Chip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Philip has a tooth ache and got a grant to do another book I had a photo shoot in 100 degree weather Chip reads girly magazines Dot is being naughty Stamps in the US go up to .37 tomorrow LM is full of gas Tony reminded us that Christmas is not too far away Mason Barge laughed at Mark B’s male bashing joke A new face was added to the gallery Graff found his dream lady decorating thing. Jackie almost blew up her kitchen and forgot her phone # again Love Cathy What is new with everyone? I hope everyone is doing well…….  ;-) C — …

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:Jackie I recently spent 2 days trying to send an important fax before :someone noticed that I was sending it to myself. I was advised to go home. I :didn’t but all things considered probably it would have been a good idea. :love Meryl LOL!! Makes me feel so much better and saner when I hear other stories like this Jackie ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~

Response:

What is new with everyone? I hope everyone is doing well…….  ;-) C

Doing fine, Cheryl.  Got the book you sent and will send it back when I am done.  Thanks for being so thoughtful. We are installing an air conditioner in the LR today, so mess everywhere.  I will be glad when it is done. Take care, Liz

Response:

Jackie, I do this sort of stuff all the time. Ask PJ about me stopping at a green light? I didn’t tell him I’ve done it before. love Meryl

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :Jackie I recently spent 2 days trying to send an important fax before :someone noticed that I was sending it to myself. I was advised to go home. I :didn’t but all things considered probably it would have been a good idea. :love Meryl LOL!! Makes me feel so much better and saner when I hear other stories like this Jackie ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~

Response:

Think of us poor, single, folks. We never call our own numbers, because if we are not there, who is there to call? Boyd

: : :Jackie almost blew up her kitchen and forgot her phone # again : : : :Love : :Cathy : : ROFL!! I nearly choked when I read this ) : When you say that I forgot my phone number again…..do you remember last : Summer when I was trying to get a hold of my Mother and was getting upset : because the phone was busy for many hours only to find out I was calling : : P.S. I was asked my phone number today and remembered it!! : : Jackie : ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~ :

Response:

I know a guy who is a friend of my husband’s. Once he received a bill that showed he had not made one single call in 3 months (we pay for local calls here). He was so concerned he called Ian so that his next bill would show he had at least one person to call. love Meryl

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Think of us poor, single, folks. We never call our own numbers, because if we are not there, who is there to call? Boyd : : :Jackie almost blew up her kitchen and forgot her phone # again : : : :Love : :Cathy : : ROFL!! I nearly choked when I read this ) : When you say that I forgot my phone number again…..do you remember last : Summer when I was trying to get a hold of my Mother and was getting upset : because the phone was busy for many hours only to find out I was calling : : P.S. I was asked my phone number today and remembered it!! : : Jackie : ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~ :

Response:

What is new with everyone? I hope everyone is doing well…….  ;-) C — …

Response:

:What is new with everyone? : :I hope everyone is doing well…….  ;-) Dear Cheryl, actually I misplaced my brain and lost my mind a few days ago ) Things coffee yesterday and then wondered why there was no coffee in the pot yet the machine, it doesn`t happen all by itself??? )) Take care and I hope you are having fun!! {{{{{Cheryl}}}}} Jackie ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~

Response:

Philip has a tooth ache and got a grant to do another book I had a photo shoot in 100 degree weather Chip reads girly magazines Dot is being naughty Stamps in the US go up to .37 tomorrow LM is full of gas Tony reminded us that Christmas is not too far away Mason Barge laughed at Mark B’s male bashing joke A new face was added to the gallery Graff found his dream lady thing. Jackie almost blew up her kitchen and forgot her phone # again Love Cathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is new with everyone? I hope everyone is doing well…….  ;-) C — …

Response:

:Jackie almost blew up her kitchen and forgot her phone # again : :Love :Cathy ROFL!! I nearly choked when I read this ) When you say that I forgot my phone number again…..do you remember last Summer when I was trying to get a hold of my Mother and was getting upset because the phone was busy for many hours only to find out I was calling P.S. I was asked my phone number today and remembered it!! Jackie ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :Jackie almost blew up her kitchen and forgot her phone # again : :Love :Cathy ROFL!! I nearly choked when I read this ) When you say that I forgot my phone number again…..do you remember last Summer when I was trying to get a hold of my Mother and was getting upset because the phone was busy for many hours only to find out I was calling P.S. I was asked my phone number today and remembered it!! Jackie ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~

Jackie I recently spent 2 days trying to send an important fax before someone noticed that I was sending it to myself. I was advised to go home. I didn’t but all things considered probably it would have been a good idea. love Meryl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Cathy, ROFLMAO – I am truly happy that I wasn’t drinking anything when I read this post. It’s HYSTERICAL!!!  (Chip reads girlie magazines???? – I missed that one…) I am saving this post for a day when I need a good laugh!!! smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Philip has a tooth ache and got a grant to do another book I had a photo shoot in 100 degree weather Chip reads girly magazines Dot is being naughty Stamps in the US go up to .37 tomorrow LM is full of gas Tony reminded us that Christmas is not too far away Mason Barge laughed at Mark B’s male bashing joke A new face was added to the gallery Graff found his dream lady thing. Jackie almost blew up her kitchen and forgot her phone # again Love Cathy What is new with everyone? I hope everyone is doing well…….  ;-) C — …

Response:

Question:

A Hole Detector dropped trou, moved his depends to the side, farted thrice

A keen sense of smell.  Here’s the ass hole detector at work: http://home.thegrid.net/~i436553/ahole_detector.jpg

Response:

A few days ago I asked a how many BTU I would need to cool an uninsulated 10′x12′ shed.  Its in Texas where it gets very hot obviously.  The consensus was 10000-12000.  Well, I went to Home Depot and the guy there said 6000 should be plenty.  The box said 6000 would cool 200 sqft and I only have 120.  After installing it and using it for a few days, I dont think 6000 BTU is gonna cut it (big surprise huh?).

Insulate everything! Walls & ceiling! Then the 6000 btu unit will be too large! I have a 11000 btu unit that cools a well insulated 900 square foot shop, as long as it is allowed to run when it wants. It will not catch up if the temps are high already, but if started the evening before if works well. Greg

Response:

A long time ago I read a book about real estate and one of the subjects was "Screw you University".  Sounds like you just passed their first semester. Seriously, I admire your admitting to a "mistake" and consequently trying to learn from it. Do a search on the web for "sizing an air conditioner" or something similar.  You might also check Consumers Report.  I know they publish that sort of thing on a rather regular basis. Ace – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A few days ago I asked a how many BTU I would need to cool an uninsulated 10′x12′ shed.  Its in Texas where it gets very hot obviously.  The consensus was 10000-12000.  Well, I went to Home Depot and the guy there said 6000 should be plenty.  The box said 6000 would cool 200 sqft and I only have 120.  After installing it and using it for a few days, I dont think 6000 BTU is gonna cut it (big surprise huh?). I installed one of those whirlybird spinning roof vents and Im insulating the ceiling.  Do you think 6000 BTU will be enough with these small improvements?  Im trying not to have to buy a big A/C because I have limited amount of power available.  Also, I cut a hole in the shed on the side next to the house and a really big A/C wont fit between the shed and house.  The 8000 BTU unit will fit. 1.  Will my current 6000BTU unti be enough 2.  Will 8000 be enough now? 3.  How much ventilation room must there be between the back of the unit and a brick wall?

– If congress purportedly has oversight authority, then who watches the watchers?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH…. BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Art, people like you would enjoy this http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy/ I post links dip-shit.  Not go to them.  Great handle there "a hole detector".  Must have a long nose.

doesn’t take a long nose to see you are a class A "A__hole"

Response:

And again….if you want it sized right… Get a manual J completed….sheesh.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A few days ago I asked a how many BTU I would need to cool an uninsulated 10′x12′ shed.  Its in Texas where it gets very hot obviously.  The consensus was 10000-12000.  Well, I went to Home Depot and the guy there said 6000 should be plenty.  The box said 6000 would cool 200 sqft and I only have 120.  After installing it and using it for a few days, I dont think 6000 BTU is gonna cut it (big surprise huh?). I installed one of those whirlybird spinning roof vents and Im insulating the ceiling.  Do you think 6000 BTU will be enough with these small improvements?  Im trying not to have to buy a big A/C because I have limited amount of power available.  Also, I cut a hole in the shed on the side next to the house and a really big A/C wont fit between the shed and house.  The 8000 BTU unit will fit. 1.  Will my current 6000BTU unti be enough 2.  Will 8000 be enough now? 3.  How much ventilation room must there be between the back of the unit and a brick wall?

Response:

If you still have the box/paperwork and have not damaged the unit HD will take it back. I returned one last year, after installing it and running it for a couple of days. I think you are gonna need at least 10,000 btu even with the ceiling insulated. Now if you also do the walls then maybe 7,000 or 8,000.

Response:

A few days ago I asked a how many BTU I would need to cool an uninsulated 10′x12′ shed.  Its in Texas where it gets very hot obviously.  The consensus was 10000-12000.  Well, I went to Home Depot and the guy there said 6000 should be plenty.  The box said 6000 would cool 200 sqft and I only have 120.  After installing it and using it for a few days, I dont think 6000 BTU is gonna cut it

BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH…. BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Response:

BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH…. BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Art, people like you would enjoy this http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy/

Response:

BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH…. BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Art, people like you would enjoy this http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy/

I post links dip-shit.  Not go to them.  Great handle there "a hole detector".  Must have a long nose.

Response:

You gonna go back to the gomer at Homer and tell him about it?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A few days ago I asked a how many BTU I would need to cool an uninsulated 10′x12′ shed.  Its in Texas where it gets very hot obviously.  The consensus was 10000-12000.  Well, I went to Home Depot and the guy there said 6000 should be plenty.  The box said 6000 would cool 200 sqft and I only have 120.  After installing it and using it for a few days, I dont think 6000 BTU is gonna cut it (big surprise huh?). I installed one of those whirlybird spinning roof vents and Im insulating the ceiling.  Do you think 6000 BTU will be enough with these small improvements?  Im trying not to have to buy a big A/C because I have limited amount of power available.  Also, I cut a hole in the shed on the side next to the house and a really big A/C wont fit between the shed and house.  The 8000 BTU unit will fit. 1.  Will my current 6000BTU unti be enough 2.  Will 8000 be enough now? 3.  How much ventilation room must there be between the back of the unit and a brick wall?

Response:

A few days ago I asked a how many BTU I would need to cool an uninsulated 10′x12′ shed.  Its in Texas where it gets very hot obviously.  The consensus was 10000-12000.  Well, I went to Home Depot and the guy there said 6000 should be plenty.

The "Guy There" is a minimum waged pimply-faced loser and the best job he could get in this world with all his worldly  knowledge and experience is a sales associate at Home Depot. And you listened to him. Don’t you think you were better off following the advice of complete strangers, who at least seem to know a thing or 2 about these things? The problem here is, someone at Home Depot told you EXACTLY what you wanted to hear. That their smallest, cheapest A/C will do you just fine. Why are you even bothering coming back here and asking AGAIN? I’ll bet if you return the small unit, and then push your cart out to the A/C asile, you’ll buy another 6000 btu unit. The box said 6000 would cool 200 sqft and I only have 120.

In an INSULATED house with INSULATED walls and INSULATED windows and an INSULATED roof you moron. After installing it and using it for a few days, I dont think 6000 BTU is gonna cut it (big surprise huh?).

No shit sherlok. I installed one of those whirlybird spinning roof vents and Im insulating the ceiling.  Do you think 6000 BTU will be enough with these small improvements?

Not when the walls are 120 degrees.  Im trying not to have to buy a big A/C because I have limited amount of power available.  Also, I cut a hole in the shed on the side next to the house and a really big A/C wont fit between the shed and house.  The 8000 BTU unit will fit.

So I’ll bet the 6 & 8000 just barely fit. 1.  Will my current 6000BTU unti be enough

You’re running it now and it isn’t. 2.  Will 8000 be enough now?

That’s only 2000 more than what you’re running now. How bad is it? Is it almost cool enough or nowhere near cool enough. 3.  How much ventilation room must there be between the back of the unit and a brick wall?

What does the manufacturer say? Do you really think there’s 1 standard that applies to every air-conditioner in the world? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Response:

A few days ago I asked a how many BTU I would need to cool an uninsulated 10′x12′ shed.  Its in Texas where it gets very hot obviously.  The consensus was 10000-12000.  Well, I went to Home Depot and the guy there said 6000 should be plenty.  The box said 6000 would cool 200 sqft and I only have 120.  After installing it and using it for a few days, I dont think 6000 BTU is gonna cut it (big surprise huh?). I installed one of those whirlybird spinning roof vents and Im insulating the ceiling.  Do you think 6000 BTU will be enough with these small improvements?  Im trying not to have to buy a big A/C because I have limited amount of power available.  Also, I cut a hole in the shed on the side next to the house and a really big A/C wont fit between the shed and house.  The 8000 BTU unit will fit. 1.  Will my current 6000BTU unti be enough 2.  Will 8000 be enough now? 3.  How much ventilation room must there be between the back of the unit and a brick wall?

Response:

Question:

I am considering buying a house.  I really like the layout and location of the house, but I cannot stand the ceilings (popcorn on the flat ceilings and beautiful wood beam on 70%), the floors (50% Pergo 30% carpet 10% tiled and 10% marble), and walls (dark textured wallpaper throughout). If I were to purchase this house, I think I need to do the following: Remove all popcorn ceilings – either scrap it off or replace with new drywall altogether. Remove all wallpaper and repaint – I think however it is not practical to peel off the wall paper cleanly, cost wise it may be better to just rip out all the walls and replace them, is this right? Remove all Pergo floor – this should be no problem, they are not really adhere to the concrete floor below. Remove carpet – no problem. Remove that ugly greyish marble floor in the bathroom – this will be tricky because I think this is very difficult because I am not sure it is possible without ripping out the bath cabinets and toilet/bidet.  The marble is probably set on mud?  This will be a back breaker? How do I go about making an estimate on the remodeling cost?  It seems that even the location of the house, there may be too many things I need to do to make it palatable for me?  Is hiring someone to come in and remove all walls and replace them going to cost an arm and a leg? Thanks for any advice. Sum

Response:

I bought an investment property and did exactly that. The walls, floors, doors and ceilings were in such a state of disrepair, they weren’t worth trying to fix. Most people could handle the rip-out themselves. Yank all the nails, too. You’ll have an easier time finding a sheetrocking contractor to do your whole house over, than it is to get one in to patch up here and there…  The other expense worth considering, is that now is a great time to upgrade your insulation, and add any electrical outlets, switches, hi-hats, etc since the walls are all open. Don’t forget Air-Conditioner outlets if there’s no central A/C. If you like vaulted ceilings, nows the time to consider that, too. And heck, while you’re at it (well, this was my logic at the time) you might as well modernize those windows and exterior doors too! And then why stop there? Central vac system is a piece of cake to install now, and since I already had one in my own home I could really appreciate it’s value. (Even if you don’t install the central unit now, installing the pipes and the inlets and control wiring is very inexpensive) And you know what? Cable, satallite and in-home internet access is becoming more and more popular these days… better rough-in a couple of deep 4" square boxes in each room, with 1" or a couple 3/4" conduits to either 1 central utility location (Like near your telephone entry service location, or at least to the basement or attic) When it was all over, I had what appeared to be a brand new home. (On the inside, anyway) and my choice of tennants. The bathroom marble might be your toughest challenge. Removing a vanity, sink, and toilet isn’t difficult at all though. Trying to demolish a marble floor without damaging the subfloor too much will be challenging. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am considering buying a house.  I really like the layout and location of the house, but I cannot stand the ceilings (popcorn on the flat ceilings and beautiful wood beam on 70%), the floors (50% Pergo 30% carpet 10% tiled and 10% marble), and walls (dark textured wallpaper throughout). If I were to purchase this house, I think I need to do the following: Remove all popcorn ceilings – either scrap it off or replace with new drywall altogether. Remove all wallpaper and repaint – I think however it is not practical to peel off the wall paper cleanly, cost wise it may be better to just rip out all the walls and replace them, is this right? Remove all Pergo floor – this should be no problem, they are not really adhere to the concrete floor below. Remove carpet – no problem. Remove that ugly greyish marble floor in the bathroom – this will be tricky because I think this is very difficult because I am not sure it is possible without ripping out the bath cabinets and toilet/bidet.  The marble is probably set on mud?  This will be a back breaker? How do I go about making an estimate on the remodeling cost?  It seems that even the location of the house, there may be too many things I need to do to make it palatable for me?  Is hiring someone to come in and remove all walls and replace them going to cost an arm and a leg? Thanks for any advice. Sum Path: lobby!ngtf-m01.news.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.skycache.com.MI

SMATCH!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!fe ed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsma ster1.prod.itd.earthlink.ne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -t!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.home.repair Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.229.137.240 X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1006235994 65.229.137.240 (Mon, 19 Nov 2001 21:59:54 PST) Organization: EarthLink Inc. — http://www.EarthLink.net (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net)

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Response:

Can someone provide some guidance on how I would make an estimate of the cost of renovation?  Is there any general cost ballmark on: removal of drywall $ per sf installation of drywall (include install, tape, 3 coat joint compound application, no paint) $ per sf install baseboard and molding $ per sf demolish tile floor $ per sf demolish marble floor $ per sf any idea? Location is Miami, Florida. Thanks, Sum – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am considering buying a house.  I really like the layout and location of the house, but I cannot stand the ceilings (popcorn on the flat ceilings and beautiful wood beam on 70%), the floors (50% Pergo 30% carpet 10% tiled and 10% marble), and walls (dark textured wallpaper throughout). If I were to purchase this house, I think I need to do the following: Remove all popcorn ceilings – either scrap it off or replace with new drywall altogether. Remove all wallpaper and repaint – I think however it is not practical to peel off the wall paper cleanly, cost wise it may be better to just rip out all the walls and replace them, is this right? Remove all Pergo floor – this should be no problem, they are not really adhere to the concrete floor below. Remove carpet – no problem. Remove that ugly greyish marble floor in the bathroom – this will be tricky because I think this is very difficult because I am not sure it is possible without ripping out the bath cabinets and toilet/bidet.  The marble is probably set on mud?  This will be a back breaker? How do I go about making an estimate on the remodeling cost?  It seems that even the location of the house, there may be too many things I need to do to make it palatable for me?  Is hiring someone to come in and remove all walls and replace them going to cost an arm and a leg? Thanks for any advice. Sum

Response:

Question:

It matters little. If you have a GOOD contractor installing Goodman, it will outlast a Trane installed by a moron, or careless company. If you are looking for units that are quiet, then find a good contractor that handles the brand you want. Trane, Carrier, York all make some units that even we have to check sometimes to see if they are running. The unit, is only as good as the man installing it. — www.carolinabreezehvac.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the best air conditioner on the market today ?  in terms of quiet, value and reliability? I have a 3 tonne unit and the outside condenser is on the way out. It’s time to replace it.  I don’t know if I want to go with a Trane, Carrier or some other brand.  Any thoughts ?

Response:

    The best is the one your contractor handles.  The differences between brands is much less important than the differences between contractors.

Agreed. Some manufacturers have better warrantys than others ( 5 years vs 10 years on the compressor for example), but nothing beats a reputable contractor to install it. I know I’ve posted it before, but the best line I’ve heard was "The unit its as good as the person installing it." Words to live by……

Response:

What is the best air conditioner on the market today ?  in terms of quiet, value and reliability? I have a 3 tonne unit and the outside condenser is on the way out. It’s time to replace it.  I don’t know if I want to go with a Trane, Carrier or some other brand.  Any thoughts ?

Response:

    The best is the one your contractor handles.  The differences between brands is much less important than the differences between contractors.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the best air conditioner on the market today ?  in terms of quiet, value and reliability? I have a 3 tonne unit and the outside condenser is on the way out. It’s time to replace it.  I don’t know if I want to go with a Trane, Carrier or some other brand.  Any thoughts ?

Response:

Question:

Hi, I recently moved into a studio apartment in Boston, MA.  It’s an old townhouse, and there are about 12 units in the building.  I’ve never lived in an older building before, and I’m having some "inconveniences" with the wiring and plumbing.  I say "inconveniences" because although I would like the problems fixed, I will be able to put up with them if necessary. The first problem is with the plumbing.  When I take a shower, the water temperature changes drastically at times.  It will go from comfortably warm to scalding hot in about 2 seconds.  The water is so hot I am forced to step aside out of the spray.  The water will remain scalding hot for about 10 seconds, then return to normal.  This happens about 5 times in a 15 minute shower. The faucet has two separate knobs, one for cold and one for hot.  I spoke to a plumber friend, and he said the landlord could fix this problem by installing a pressure-regulating faucet in the shower.  He said the faucet would be about $100, and the labor would run another few hundred. The second problem is with the wiring.  As far as I can tell, my whole unit is on one circuit.  Whenever my freezer or air conditioner kicks in, the lights in the apartment dim.  Just yesterday, I was using my George Foreman electric grill, and the breaker tripped.  To my surprise, two other units lost power as well, because the tenants came out into the hallway.  Apparently, multiple units are on the same breaker.  I switched the breaker back on, then turned off my AC and continued cooking.  I talked to another tenant, and she said she the breaker has tripped several other times this summer as well. I mentioned these problems to my landlord informally, and he basically said "It’s an old building.  There’s nothing I can do." Is my landlord required, by law, to fix either of these problems? Should I press him to fix these problems, or should I just live with them?  I don’t want to be a pain in the ass tneant, but I’m paying a lot for rent and I feel I deserve adequate plumbing and wiring. What would you do in my situation? Thanks, Mike Harder

Response:

Generally, if the building met code at the time it was built, you can’t be forced to improve or upgrade systems now–UNLESS you are adding, changing, remodeling etc.  Then you need to bring the unit (if not the whole building) up to current code. If there are obviously newer extensions to electrical circuits, if you have some old 2 prong outlets AND newer 3 prong outlets, or exposed wires, you stand a fair chance of getting the code enforcement people to get the owner to upgrade (IF he can afford it). Of course, he may be able  to just rip out the additions and revert back to the original configuration in which case you could probably get out of your lease (assuming you will no longer be able to use your ac). As far as the plumbing issue, same thing–it’s probably original equip. Now, in many locales, a "balancing" valve is required if you replace a tub faucet. Next time you go apartment hunting, check to see that you have good water VOLUME at all faucets, hot and cold (galvanized iron hot water lines usually get plugged with mineral deposits before cold, reducing and eventually stopping the flow of water. A reduced flow can be much more noticeably affected by a second faucet being turned on. Copper pipes don’t have this problem, although valves can still get clogged). Also check for seperate100 amp service with circuit breakers for your unit…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is my landlord required, by law, to fix either of these problems? maybe, maybe not.  call the local building dept., code enforcement, or whatever agency enforces the housing codes there regarding possible ’sub-standard’ housing issues. What would you do in my situation? -that’s- what i would do.

Response:

The first problem is with the plumbing.  When I take a shower, the water temperature changes drastically at times.  It will go from comfortably warm to scalding hot in about 2 seconds.  The water is so hot I am forced to step aside out of the spray.  The water will remain scalding hot for about 10 seconds, then return to normal.  This happens about 5 times in a 15 minute shower.

Anyone else using the hot water?  Are other units tied in to the same heater?  The correction in any case is to put in a new shower control that will prevent scalding.  This my even be a code violation for rentals, but I really don’t know.  Get an instant read thermometer and try to get the actual temperature.  That my be a consideration to force a change. two other units lost power as well, because the tenants came out into the hallway.  Apparently, multiple units are on the same breaker.  I switched the breaker back on, then turned off my AC and continued cooking.  I talked to another tenant, and she said she the breaker has tripped several other times this summer as well.

Better the breaker trip than the place burn down, but it should be fixed. I mentioned these problems to my landlord informally, and he basically said "It’s an old building.  There’s nothing I can do."

He’s right, there is nothihng HE can do, but he can hire the people that can.  Oh, that costs money. Sarcasm aside, if he does spend the money, he will probably raise rents next year.  He does have to make a profit to exist, it just should not be excessive though.  Remember, landlords do not pay for repairs, taxes, or building upkeep.  Those costs are passed on throu rents.  If you are paying $300 a month less than the norm, put up with it; if you are paying hte norm, you are entitled to a safe, livable place in exchance for what you pay. What would you do in my situation?

I’d approach him politely first to see what is going to be done.  Just asked when the building is going to be re-wired.  If you get a refusal, you can them mention that you will have to see if it is  up to code.  Then do so. Ed http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

Response:

I recently moved into a studio apartment in Boston, MA.  It’s an old townhouse, and there are about 12 units in the building.  I’ve never lived in an older building before, and I’m having some "inconveniences" with the wiring and plumbing.  I say "inconveniences" because although I would like the problems fixed, I will be able to put up with them if necessary.

I have lived in older rentals in New Haven, Baltimore, Seattle, and frequented similar apartments in New York, Boston, D.C., Portland etc. We now enjoy the pleasures of home-ownership — we can fix the "inconveniences" now, but I either have to pay or spend the time, so we still live with many of them. This group is apparently overpopulated with upper-middle-class suburbanites living in new houses. What you describe is normal for older, middle-class housing in cities, a very significant fraction of homes, if not the majority. These buildings were not designed for the high-capacity electrical appliances people now consider necesities. They were not even designed for taking showers, a rather recent custom. The rental economy does not make renovation practicable. Assuming you don’t want to move to the ‘burbs or a new high-rise, your only real choice is to put up or move to renovated older building at double the rent. Eric Salathe

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What would you do in my situation? I’d approach him politely first to see what is going to be done. Just asked when the building is going to be re-wired.  If you get a refusal, you can them mention that you will have to see if it is up to code.  Then do so.

Aside from that the above scenario will lead inevitably to impoliteness, the problem, Ed, is that what your are suggesting would require evicting all the tenants, ripping out interior, investing $100,000…. At which point, landlord will sell units as condos for $500,000 a piece. Not exactly solving the poster’s problem nor what the landlord is in business for. You don’t see many renovated apartments in cities, and those are renting for over $2000 a month. In fact, if conditions are better than the poster describes, he’s paying above the norm, not below. Eric Salathe

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Is my landlord required, by law, to fix either of these problems? Should I press him to fix these problems, or should I just live with them?  I don’t want to be a pain in the ass tneant, but I’m paying a lot for rent and I feel I deserve adequate plumbing and wiring. What would you do in my situation?

I would contact your local block or neighborhood association for a reference to a tenant clinic in the area.  Then ask one of their lawyers or advocates, any of whom will know more about Boston multiple dwelling law than the people here. But that won’t stop me for offering my uneducated opinion (although I used to be a tenant advocate for Lower Manhattan Loft Tenants).  The hot water problem will probably result in no relief.  If the city busted the landlord’s chops about it he would probably respond by turning down the boiler.  You can fix this yourself with an automatic temperature control valve. As for the wiring, if the landlord is paying your electricity bill then it probably doesn’t matter that you’re sharing breakers with other tenants.  As someone else said, the wiring is probably grandfathered, in which case you would need to convince a buildings or fire inspector that it was a potential fire hazard. You could check whether or not the unit was recently subdivided in which case the wiring should have been upgraded to code, or at least that’s the law in NYC.  Note that a large number of real property subdivisions are done without permits.  My last landlord converted his ten-floor Broadway building from factory spaces to residential units and then to 80+ offices without ever filing with the city or even employing an architect or professional builders.

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Hi, I recently moved into a studio apartment in Boston, MA.  It’s an old townhouse, and there are about 12 units in the building.  I’ve never lived in an older building before, and I’m having some "inconveniences" with the wiring and plumbing.  I say "inconveniences" because although I would like the problems fixed, I will be able to put up with them if necessary.

This really depends on where you live and what local and state regs are.  Unlike a private residence, where just about any deficiency can be "grandfathered", multi-unit dwellings are usually required to be upgraded to some minimal standards for health, safety, and basic liveability.  Precisely what these minimal standards are varies from locality to locality.  I think in our neck of the woods (Minnesota) the landlord would probably be required to update the electrical system and possibly the plumbing you describe, but as I say that varies a lot. Of course, what your landlord is really saying when he says "There’s nothing I can do" is that he can find plenty of renters for the property as is, and he wouldn’t be able to raise the rent that much if he upgraded things. — Dan Hicks There is a point beyond which even justice becomes unjust.  –Sophocles

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Is my landlord required, by law, to fix either of these problems? Should I press him to fix these problems, or should I just live with them?  I don’t want to be a pain in the ass tneant, but I’m paying a lot for rent and I feel I deserve adequate plumbing and wiring.

You’re not asking your landlord to "fix problems", you’re asking your landlord to transform an old building which was not designed for A/Cs and George Foreman Grills into an ultra-modern building.  It’s not going to happen without gutting the place. What would you do in my situation?

I’d thank my lucky stars that the landlord hasn’t been tempted to override the circuit breakers to shut the tenants up … If this is really important to you, next time rent an apartment in a new building.  Expect to pay for the "fixed problems" through the nose, tho. Woods

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Is my landlord required, by law, to fix either of these problems?

Don’t ask us, we only pretend to be lawyers…  :) In general, no he isn’t.  But there may be a life-safety issue with the wiring or some special code in your jurisdiction.  The place to ask is your city’s Landlord/Tenant board if they have one, the building department if they don’t. Should I press him to fix these problems, or should I just live with them?  I don’t want to be a pain in the ass tneant, but I’m paying a lot for rent and I feel I deserve adequate plumbing and wiring.

Is "a lot for rent" out of line for the neighborhood?  I’ve got a friend in lower Manhatten who pays a LOT for rent, but she’s about 40% below market.  Everything is relative. Also, what you describe is typical in old apartments.  If you want the newest, most modern conveniences, rent a new, modern apartment.  You could have gotten worse. What would you do in my situation?

Balance the value of what I’m paying for what I’m getting.  If I didn’t like it, I’d move.  The equation is different for everyone. Jeff

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Is my landlord required, by law, to fix either of these problems? Should I press him to fix these problems, or should I just live with them?  I don’t want to be a pain in the ass tneant, but I’m paying a lot for rent and I feel I deserve adequate plumbing and wiring.

It is huge work…are you prepared to habit in a constructions zone for a month or more and then pay a significant increase? If the owner does not occupy a unit at that location and is just an investor then they expect a return on their investment….which is a whole other topic but is somewhat necessary to understand the position of the landlord.  First there are good and not so good landlords, just as in tenants, although the tenants are usually in a better position…as they can move on…not necessarly so for landlords unless they sell the place. Many who have the chance to be landlords (be they landowners or even tenants with subtenants) or are, probably would not like to be landlords residentially if they need not be. Bottom line if the landlord can not afford to keep the place and do the repairs then they dont do them or they will give the place up (sell or loose it). You have been given lots of good advice and real experience opinions in this thread. I have found that some tenants do not want repairs done unless it is absolutely necessary because it is an inconvience.  And does not inform the landlord until they move out or the landlord is given notice that they are leaving.  And then when they are going to be moving they most definately dont want the work done.  Then the landlord has to rent the place because they cant afford the loss of having the apt empty.  Then the repairs become very culmative very fast. I had one apt that need to be vacant for 4 months ( a 2 floor unit – 7 rooms 2 toilets) that need to be redone – not renovated.   And then the first floor became vacant and it required 5 months of redo (including the exterior) and after all this and $40,000 worth of work the owner did not want to be a landlord and sold the place.  80% + of the purchasers wanted a single family house – this house had 14 rooms and the purchaser a family = couple = 2 people bought it and are returning it to a single family dwelling…..most of them had to extend themselves to do this when renting one of the units would make it siginificantly easy on them…..they did not want to do soGo figure:}} The loss of rent and the costs of repairs was not worth the risk and ???? of continuing to be a landlord. I know many landowners who have apts that will not rent them, including us.  Why?  Beacuse it can be more than just an inconvience. If a landlord is taking a loss on a place – and this includes them (investors) who are not getting the return they want or need the answer of work being done should be obvious…..but you as a tenant it may be impossible to know the situation nor may or would you necessarly care.  But if you like the place and location you should care about the landlords position.  BTW there is a significant difference between a large landlord…say 40 units+ and the owner occupied or 5-6 units or less landlord. I doubt very much that if you were to realize what this kind of work was to involve you would be more than happy with your situation.  Many tenants are and those that are not usually move on…… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Is "a lot for rent" out of line for the neighborhood?  I’ve got a friend in lower Manhatten who pays a LOT for rent, but she’s about 40% below market.  Everything is relative. Also, what you describe is typical in old apartments.  If you want the newest, most modern conveniences, rent a new, modern apartment.  You could have gotten worse. What would you do in my situation? Balance the value of what I’m paying for what I’m getting.  If I didn’t like it, I’d move.  The equation is different for everyone. Jeff

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   What you need to do is move before you raise everybody else’s rent (and blood pressure) having a huge fight with the landlord.

I dunno about Boston but in NYC the cost of curing building violations can’t be passed along to tenants as a rent surcharge.  Only improvements, which are completely up to the landlord’s discretion.

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  About the wiring, who pays the electric bill?  How is the metering done?  Where is that "breaker" that you reset?   If a breaker in *your* apartment killed power to other units, and if you pay for the electricity *you* use, then guess what?  You are also paying for what other units use.   My guess is that you have access to the basement and the main power panel, and that the owner pays the electricity for the whole place.  But it would be nice for us to know.  It sounds like an old place, and you are given the privilege of going in the basement.   Perhaps you could pay for some of these improvements yourself and the owner would deduct some of it from rent (or not).  –Phil

… The second problem is with the wiring.  As far as I can tell, my whole unit is on one circuit.  Whenever my freezer or air conditioner kicks in, the lights in the apartment dim.  Just yesterday, I was using my George Foreman electric grill, and the breaker tripped.  To my surprise, two other units lost power as well, because the tenants came out into the hallway.  Apparently, multiple units are on the same breaker.  I switched the breaker back on, then turned off my AC and continued cooking.  I talked to another tenant, and she said she the breaker has tripped several other times this summer as well. … —   Phil Munro                      Dept of Electrical & Computer Engin                                               Youngstown, Ohio  44555

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I would contact your local block or neighborhood association for a reference to a tenant clinic in the area. The hot water problem will probably result in no relief. As for the wiring, if the landlord is paying your electricity bill then it probably doesn’t matter that you’re sharing breakers with other tenants.

This is characteristic of most of the posts in this thread. There is no evidence whatsoever of a code violation or any rational claim against the landlord. Noone has even come up with a possible violation. All we have is some rusty pipes and insufficient amperage. And yet everyone is looking for ways to make trouble for the landlord without any justification. Get the city to hassle him with code inspections. Get the tennant’s union on his case. Make idle threats. Why not just suggest the guy torches the place just to get even for not being able to use his electric grill? Eric Salathe

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    Don’t kid yourself. A guy who knows how to own property in NY knows how to raise the rent. Tenants who mess with rent controlled cities get what they pay for, same as anywhere else. Nobody can repeal the laws of economics. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    What you need to do is move before you raise everybody else’s rent (and blood pressure) having a huge fight with the landlord. I dunno about Boston but in NYC the cost of curing building violations can’t be passed along to tenants as a rent surcharge.  Only improvements, which are completely up to the landlord’s discretion.

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   Don’t kid yourself. A guy who knows how to own property in NY knows how to raise the rent. Tenants who mess with rent controlled cities get what they pay for, same as anywhere else. Nobody can repeal the laws of economics.

Er… huh?

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As for the wiring, if the landlord is paying your electricity bill then it probably doesn’t matter that you’re sharing breakers with other tenants. This is characteristic of most of the posts in this thread. There is no evidence whatsoever of a code violation or any rational claim against the landlord. Noone has even come up with a possible violation. All we have is some rusty pipes and insufficient amperage.

Which thread were you reading?  Where did I say that any of this was a code violation? And yet everyone is looking for ways to make trouble for the landlord without any justification. Get the city to hassle him with code inspections. Get the tennant’s union on his case. Make idle threats. Why not just suggest the guy torches the place just to get even for not being able to use his electric grill?

I’m not assuming anything.  In fact, I told him that he doesn’t seem to have much of a case.  Landlords expect their rent on time and hold the power of eviction.  Tenants have tenant associations and code enforcement.  It’s called balance of power.  If you want to play either landlord or tenant, those are the rules of the game.  If you don’t like the rules, invest in pushcarts or buy your own home.

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    What you need to do is move before you raise everybody else’s rent (and blood pressure) having a huge fight with the landlord. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I recently moved into a studio apartment in Boston, MA.  It’s an old townhouse, and there are about 12 units in the building.  I’ve never lived in an older building before, and I’m having some "inconveniences" with the wiring and plumbing.  I say "inconveniences" because although I would like the problems fixed, I will be able to put up with them if necessary. The first problem is with the plumbing.  When I take a shower, the water temperature changes drastically at times.  It will go from comfortably warm to scalding hot in about 2 seconds.  The water is so hot I am forced to step aside out of the spray.  The water will remain scalding hot for about 10 seconds, then return to normal.  This happens about 5 times in a 15 minute shower. The faucet has two separate knobs, one for cold and one for hot.  I spoke to a plumber friend, and he said the landlord could fix this problem by installing a pressure-regulating faucet in the shower.  He said the faucet would be about $100, and the labor would run another few hundred. The second problem is with the wiring.  As far as I can tell, my whole unit is on one circuit.  Whenever my freezer or air conditioner kicks in, the lights in the apartment dim.  Just yesterday, I was using my George Foreman electric grill, and the breaker tripped.  To my surprise, two other units lost power as well, because the tenants came out into the hallway.  Apparently, multiple units are on the same breaker.  I switched the breaker back on, then turned off my AC and continued cooking.  I talked to another tenant, and she said she the breaker has tripped several other times this summer as well. I mentioned these problems to my landlord informally, and he basically said "It’s an old building.  There’s nothing I can do." Is my landlord required, by law, to fix either of these problems? Should I press him to fix these problems, or should I just live with them?  I don’t want to be a pain in the ass tneant, but I’m paying a lot for rent and I feel I deserve adequate plumbing and wiring. What would you do in my situation? Thanks, Mike Harder

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Call the city/county building code inspector.  If its an old building, there’s bound to be numerous code violations.  That’ll teach you landlord for being unresponsive to your problems. Also, make sure you have a smoke detector and renter’s insurance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi, I recently moved into a studio apartment in Boston, MA.  It’s an old townhouse, and there are about 12 units in the building.  I’ve never lived in an older building before, and I’m having some "inconveniences" with the wiring and plumbing.  I say "inconveniences" because although I would like the problems fixed, I will be able to put up with them if necessary. The first problem is with the plumbing.  When I take a shower, the water temperature changes drastically at times.  It will go from comfortably warm to scalding hot in about 2 seconds.  The water is so hot I am forced to step aside out of the spray.  The water will remain scalding hot for about 10 seconds, then return to normal.  This happens about 5 times in a 15 minute shower. The faucet has two separate knobs, one for cold and one for hot.  I spoke to a plumber friend, and he said the landlord could fix this problem by installing a pressure-regulating faucet in the shower.  He said the faucet would be about $100, and the labor would run another few hundred. The second problem is with the wiring.  As far as I can tell, my whole unit is on one circuit.  Whenever my freezer or air conditioner kicks in, the lights in the apartment dim.  Just yesterday, I was using my George Foreman electric grill, and the breaker tripped.  To my surprise, two other units lost power as well, because the tenants came out into the hallway.  Apparently, multiple units are on the same breaker.  I switched the breaker back on, then turned off my AC and continued cooking.  I talked to another tenant, and she said she the breaker has tripped several other times this summer as well. I mentioned these problems to my landlord informally, and he basically said "It’s an old building.  There’s nothing I can do." Is my landlord required, by law, to fix either of these problems? Should I press him to fix these problems, or should I just live with them?  I don’t want to be a pain in the ass tneant, but I’m paying a lot for rent and I feel I deserve adequate plumbing and wiring. What would you do in my situation? Thanks, Mike Harder

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