Question:

muttered something like: Yes, but as far as I can tell Yahoo is especially horrible. We have sbcyahoo, and talking to them is just awful.  When I don’t get much customer service from a free site, I shrug my shoulders. But I am paying for this, and it annoys me.

Understandable–you tend to expect to get what you paid for, whether it’s free or not. -Bertha — "He’s going to kill Rod and Todd!  That’s horrible!   …in principle."                                          – Bart Simpson

Response:

muttered something like: I’ve never ever gotten a human response from yahoo, only canned responses or silence. Quite annoying. But so far, having used their groups service for many years, I’ve learned to work their system so it fits the way I like to use it and to just be patient if anything goes wrong.

Well see, there’s my problem.  I have no patience.  :) -Bertha — Billy, in one of his nice new sashes, Fell in the fire and was burnt to ashes. Now, although the room grows chilly I haven’t the heart to poke poor Billy.                 — Col. D. Streamer, "Ruthless Rhymes for Heartless Homes"

Response:

I’d probably have more respect for them if they could at least explain why they think e-mail was bouncing.

In the control panel, there is a one-line explaination of why it’s bouncing. However, it’s not dated, and I always get the feeling that the problem occurred some time, like maybe days, ago. By the time they shut off my mail, the problem has gone away on it’s own and so isn’t relevent any more. Also, the error message they report doesn’t seem to have any practical real-world meaning, according to my ISP, so it doesn’t help them. I asked them several times for the relevant logs so that I could figure out what the problem was, but on the rare occasions I got a response it was just a canned response that didn’t actuallly answer the question I asked.

I’ve never ever gotten a human response from yahoo, only canned responses or silence. Quite annoying. But so far, having used their groups service for many years, I’ve learned to work their system so it fits the way I like to use it and to just be patient if anything goes wrong.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been subscribed to craigslist, hoping to find some cheap good stuff, and I have been disappointed. 1. People post ads for utter crap, like very well used handheld drills that they bought for $20 new and they now want $15 for them. 2. The amount of money that they want for their stuff is usually more than what the stuff would be sold for, on ebay. 3. For some reason, there is a lot more stupid and illiterate people on craigslist (in the tools section) than on ebay. I am curious if that is similar to your own experiences. I think that I will unsubscribe from craigslist… i

I listed a ladder because there was no way it could be shipped. I never had luck with ebay on local sale only. I sold the thing in one week. Of course I had to be reasonable on the price, got only 35 bucks. But better than pitching it….I had no more use for it. For some stuff Craigslist can be good, but not when the seller is totally unrealistic about the price. Its not a sucker list.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been subscribed to craigslist, hoping to find some cheap good stuff, and I have been disappointed. 1. People post ads for utter crap, like very well used handheld drills that they bought for $20 new and they now want $15 for them. 2. The amount of money that they want for their stuff is usually more than what the stuff would be sold for, on ebay. 3. For some reason, there is a lot more stupid and illiterate people on craigslist (in the tools section) than on ebay. I am curious if that is similar to your own experiences. I think that I will unsubscribe from craigslist… i

A lot of it is overpriced but if you’re patient you can find good deals. I recently bought a pair of Klipsch KG4 speakers for $50 and sold them on ebay for $350. I also recently bought a like-new 11,800 btu air conditioner for $20. I should be able to get $130 on ebay. Most of the stuff on there though is overpriced, I saw a guy advertising a Sony 32" 1996 TV for $400.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have been subscribed to craigslist, hoping to find some cheap good stuff, and I have been disappointed. 1. People post ads for utter crap, like very well used handheld drills that they bought for $20 new and they now want $15 for them. 2. The amount of money that they want for their stuff is usually more than what the stuff would be sold for, on ebay. 3. For some reason, there is a lot more stupid and illiterate people on craigslist (in the tools section) than on ebay. I am curious if that is similar to your own experiences. I think that I will unsubscribe from craigslist… i

Hi i, I bought a very nice framed Miro print with gallery papers for $20. My friend adopted an Italian Greyhound from Craigslist too.  I generally use Freecycle though – if you don’t know about Freecycyle check it out www.freecycle.org  it’s really a yahoo group so you need a yahoo ID to join but it is free to join, just remember to select "no emails" or "daily digest" or you’ll get constant emails of new postings (you may want that – but just warning you!!). Everything is free, I’ve given away and gotten tons of free great stuff on there! I agree people are selling alot of crap of Craigslist BUT I also see lots of free pianos and decent stuff in the "free" section. I don’t subscribe to it though – i go to the website, maybe you have more flexibility to browse the different sections that way, rather than a list server.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been subscribed to craigslist, hoping to find some cheap good stuff, and I have been disappointed. 1. People post ads for utter crap, like very well used handheld drills that they bought for $20 new and they now want $15 for them. 2. The amount of money that they want for their stuff is usually more than what the stuff would be sold for, on ebay. 3. For some reason, there is a lot more stupid and illiterate people on craigslist (in the tools section) than on ebay. I am curious if that is similar to your own experiences. I think that I will unsubscribe from craigslist… i

Seems to me Craigslist is no worse than the Recycler or any local paper’s cheapo classified ads. — To reply by email, remove the word "space"

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muttered something like: www.freecycle.org  it’s really a yahoo group so you need a yahoo ID to join but it is free to join, just remember to select "no emails" or "daily

Actually a Yahoo is not necessary to join a Yahoogroups mailing list, unless the moderator sets it up that way.  Most of them prefer not to do so, in order to make them more accessible–I can’t imagine any good reason for them to insist on subscribers having a Yahoo account, and prefer to steer clear of any mailing list that refuses to let me use a perfectly legitimate e-mail address.  (Which is why I’m not on freecycle; the one for my area is run this way.) -Bertha — Marge: Bart’s such a handful, and Maggie needs attention, but all the while, our little Lisa’s becoming a young woman. Homer: Oh, so that’s it, this is some kind of underwear thing.

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I have been subscribed to craigslist, hoping to find some cheap good stuff, and I have been disappointed. I am curious if that is similar to your own experiences. I think that I will unsubscribe from craigslist…

Well, this is just one piece of exceptionally valuable information I couldn’t have went another second without. You complete me….

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3. For some reason, there is a lot more stupid and illiterate people on craigslist (in the tools section) than on ebay.

<giggle  There is, is there? — Ty Who is mostly just a slightly skewed Donna Reed A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. –Edward Abbey

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Actually a Yahoo is not necessary to join a Yahoogroups mailing list, unless the moderator sets it up that way.  Most of them prefer not to do so, in order to make them more accessible–I can’t imagine any good reason for them to insist on subscribers having a Yahoo account, and prefer to steer clear of any mailing list that refuses to let me use a perfectly legitimate e-mail address.  (Which is why I’m not on freecycle; the one for my area is run this way.)

I think you do need a yahoogroups login, but you don’t have to use a yahoo email address. For one thing, you need access to your account in order to control your email and list options.

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I am curious if that is similar to your own experiences. I think that I will unsubscribe from craigslist…

What do you mean by subscribe/unsubscribe? It’s a classified ads web site. You just read the web pages. What is a subscription and what does it get you? Anyway, I’m a big fan of the "free" section of craigslist. Often people are replacing something that still works fine and don’t want to just throw it out but they don’t want to sell it — they just want someone to come take it away. We got a great set of vertical blinds this way.

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I have been subscribed to craigslist, hoping to find some cheap good stuff, and I have been disappointed.

If you’d like an 11 digit Craig’s List "Preferred Trader" number, just let me know. Craig

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  [freecycle] Actually a Yahoo is not necessary to join a Yahoogroups mailing list, unless the moderator sets it up that way.  Most of them prefer not to do so, in order to make them more accessible–I can’t imagine any good reason for them to insist on subscribers having a Yahoo account, and prefer to steer clear of any mailing list that refuses to let me use a perfectly legitimate e-mail address. (Which is why I’m not on freecycle; the one for my area is run this way.)

One of my local whacky freecycle lists, won’t allow you to set your preferences for reading from the website. You have to receive either individual emails or digest. Same list that will 86 you if they find out you’re getting free stuff and selling it on eBay. Craig

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muttered something like: I think you do need a yahoogroups login, but you don’t have to use a yahoo email address. For one thing, you need access to your account in order to control your email and list options.

Not unless Yahoo has changed this in the last year or so–I’ve signed up to several and never logged in to yahoo or used a yahoo account in any way to do it. -Bertha — On the other hand, you have different fingers.

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What do you mean by subscribe/unsubscribe? It’s a classified ads web site. You just read the web pages. What is a subscription and what does it get you? I am subscribed to their RSS news feed.

I think there’s some confusion over what you mean by "subscribed."   Usually when you subscribe to something, you mean that you sign up with some kind of registration process that involves having your subscription managed by the organization providing the service.  An RSS feed is broadcast like a web site; it would be like saying you’re subscribing to a radio program.  It sounds like what you mean is simply that you’re going to remove the RSS feed on your site, which is done entirely on your end and does not involve the Craigslist site at all. -Bertha — Jayne: What we need is a diversion. I say Zoe gets naked. Wash: No! Jayne: I could get naked? Zoe: No!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  [freecycle] Actually a Yahoo is not necessary to join a Yahoogroups mailing list, unless the moderator sets it up that way.  Most of them prefer not to do so, in order to make them more accessible–I can’t imagine any good reason for them to insist on subscribers having a Yahoo account, and prefer to steer clear of any mailing list that refuses to let me use a perfectly legitimate e-mail address. (Which is why I’m not on freecycle; the one for my area is run this way.) One of my local whacky freecycle lists, won’t allow you to set your preferences for reading from the website. You have to receive either individual emails or digest. Same list that will 86 you if they find out you’re getting free stuff and selling it on eBay. Craig

That sux – ours says if you list it stating "no ebay" then it should be respected, but that’s about it. I do it all the time )

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If you’d like an 11 digit Craig’s List "Preferred Trader" number, just let me know. Craig, what is that 11 digit number?

188-824-674-40 Hope that helps. Craig

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I am subscribed to their RSS news feed.

Hmmm… I don’t think that the Boston craiglist has RSS available. Too bad – that might be useful to me. Maybe it’s in the works.

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Not unless Yahoo has changed this in the last year or so–I’ve signed up to several and never logged in to yahoo or used a yahoo account in any way to do it.

Well, OK, if you say so. I’ve always had the yahoogroups account, so I couldn’t check to see. So, I guess if you are subscribing externally, your only options would be to sub and unsub. You wouldn’t be able to control your other options, like changing your email address, pausing delivery of list mail, checking on delivery problems, opting in or out of their junk mail, etc.

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go to the very bottom of their particular category (like, say tools). Right there there should be a RSS link.

OK, thanks, I see it now. I was looking at the main page, but it does make more sense that you would subscribe by category, rather than be inundated by stuff you didn’t care about. I’m looking for musical instruments, don’t wanna know about babys+kids.

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muttered something like: Well, OK, if you say so. I’ve always had the yahoogroups account, so I couldn’t check to see. So, I guess if you are subscribing externally, your only options would be to sub and unsub. You wouldn’t be able to control your other options, like changing your email address, pausing delivery of list mail, checking on delivery problems, opting in or out of their junk mail, etc.

No, you wouldn’t control whatever the Yahoo panel controls.  OTOH, I don’t know what you mean by opting out of junk mail–when I’ve signed up for Yahoo lists, the only thing I got was the Yahoo list I signed up for.   Although they did keep claiming I was bouncing mail, even though my logs showed nothing from yahoogroups bouncing–perhaps they were sending spam that got caught by the spamtraps.  Yahoo never bothered to answer my query so I’ll never know. Overall Yahoogroups seems to be a poorly-run service, which leads to no surprise that most of the lists are poorly-configured as well.  I had to give up on them. -Bertha — "If you’re going to be a freak, you might as well do it with style."                                               — Cleo Dubois

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No, you wouldn’t control whatever the Yahoo panel controls.  OTOH, I don’t know what you mean by opting out of junk mail–when I’ve signed up for Yahoo lists, the only thing I got was the Yahoo list I signed up for.

It’s hard to find, but there’s a place you can go to edit your "Marketing Preferences", meaning, that they want to send you "Special Offers". When they introduced this some years ago, if you were already a member, you were signed up for everything by default! I hope they changed that behavior. Although they did keep claiming I was bouncing mail, even though my logs showed nothing from yahoogroups bouncing–perhaps they were sending spam that got caught by the spamtraps.  Yahoo never bothered to answer my query so I’ll never know.

That happens to me frequently. About once every 4 – 8 weeks, mail to my address from yahoogroups starts bouncing, so yahoo suspends the mail until I visit the site and reenable it. If I couldn’t get to the control panel, I don’t know how I would do that. Overall Yahoogroups seems to be a poorly-run service, which leads to no surprise that most of the lists are poorly-configured as well.  I had to give up on them.

I complain a lot about them, but now that I think about it, I think they do a pretty decent job. It used to be that you had to be an experienced network administrator to run a list server. Yahoo brought it to the masses, and it seems to work pretty well, considering the size of the operation.

Response:

muttered something like: That happens to me frequently. About once every 4 – 8 weeks, mail to my address from yahoogroups starts bouncing, so yahoo suspends the mail until I visit the site and reenable it. If I couldn’t get to the control panel, I don’t know how I would do that.

I just re-subscribed a few times, until I gave up.  There are few lists on Yahoo that don’t have equivilant lists elsewhere. I complain a lot about them, but now that I think about it, I think they do a pretty decent job. It used to be that you had to be an experienced network administrator to run a list server. Yahoo brought it to the masses, and it seems to work pretty well, considering the size of the operation.

I’d probably have more respect for them if they could at least explain why they think e-mail was bouncing.  I asked them several times for the relevant logs so that I could figure out what the problem was, but on the rare occasions I got a response it was just a canned response that didn’t actuallly answer the question I asked. But you’re right, this is pretty common in any large operation.  I imagine once you get to a certain size you simply can’t process all the incoming queries, so a lot of them get answered by the responderbot. -Bertha — Press any key to continue or any other key to quit

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – muttered something like: That happens to me frequently. About once every 4 – 8 weeks, mail to my address from yahoogroups starts bouncing, so yahoo suspends the mail until I visit the site and reenable it. If I couldn’t get to the control panel, I don’t know how I would do that. I just re-subscribed a few times, until I gave up.  There are few lists on Yahoo that don’t have equivilant lists elsewhere. I complain a lot about them, but now that I think about it, I think they do a pretty decent job. It used to be that you had to be an experienced network administrator to run a list server. Yahoo brought it to the masses, and it seems to work pretty well, considering the size of the operation. I’d probably have more respect for them if they could at least explain why they think e-mail was bouncing.  I asked them several times for the relevant logs so that I could figure out what the problem was, but on the rare occasions I got a response it was just a canned response that didn’t actuallly answer the question I asked. But you’re right, this is pretty common in any large operation.  I imagine once you get to a certain size you simply can’t process all the incoming queries, so a lot of them get answered by the responderbot.

Yes, but as far as I can tell Yahoo is especially horrible. We have sbcyahoo, and talking to them is just awful.  When I don’t get much customer service from a free site, I shrug my shoulders. But I am paying for this, and it annoys me. A

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Question:

Hi All, I was wondering if there was a consensus as to the quietest generator available for a Class B. I realize there are ordinances, etc. but I would like to be able to plan overnites in areas where a loud genny would draw attention. Thanks, Chas

Response:

Hi All, I was wondering if there was a consensus as to the quietest generator available for a Class B. I realize there are ordinances, etc. but I would like to be able to plan overnites in areas where a loud genny would draw attention. Thanks, Chas

Most seem to be using Onan MicroLite 2.5 or 2.8 generators in Class B. Tom J

Response:

I was wondering if there was a consensus as to the quietest generator available for a Class B. I realize there are ordinances, etc. but I would like to be able to plan overnites in areas where a loud genny would draw Most seem to be using Onan MicroLite 2.5 or 2.8 generators in Class B.

Although the Onan is reasonably quiet, it probably would not meet the original poster’s requirement.  The Honda EU series is nearly silent.  I was 10 feet from a Honda EU3000 recently and had to walk closer to even realize it was running. Brian Elfert

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Thanks Brian, I went to the website. The db level on that model is a very low 58 db under load. Chas

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was wondering if there was a consensus as to the quietest generator available for a Class B. I realize there are ordinances, etc. but I would like to be able to plan overnites in areas where a loud genny would draw Most seem to be using Onan MicroLite 2.5 or 2.8 generators in Class B. Although the Onan is reasonably quiet, it probably would not meet the original poster’s requirement.  The Honda EU series is nearly silent.  I was 10 feet from a Honda EU3000 recently and had to walk closer to even realize it was running. Brian Elfert

Response:

I was wondering if there was a consensus as to the quietest generator available for a Class B. I realize there are ordinances, etc. but I would like to be able to plan overnites in areas where a loud genny would draw Most seem to be using Onan MicroLite 2.5 or 2.8 generators in Class B. Although the Onan is reasonably quiet, it probably would not meet the original poster’s requirement.  The Honda EU series is nearly silent.  I was 10 feet from a Honda EU3000 recently and had to walk closer to even realize it was running.

  The problem might be getting it into the RV, only the EU1000 might be small enough —

Response:

Although the Onan is reasonably quiet, it probably would not meet the original poster’s requirement.  The Honda EU series is nearly silent.  I was 10 feet from a Honda EU3000 recently and had to walk closer to even realize it was running.  The problem might be getting it into the RV, only the EU1000 might be small enough

The EU2000 isn’t all that much bigger than the EU1000.  The EU3000 is pretty big.  If there an A/C unit in that class B, an EU2000 might not be big enough. Brian Elfert

Response:

Db. is short for decibels and is always expressed as a ratio.  Unless the db. rating is compared to the ambient noise background, it is meaningless. It is still meaningless unless the background noise is known as one could say that their machine is 10 db. when compared to the noise of a 767 jet. Cass

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Brian, I went to the website. The db level on that model is a very low 58 db under load. Chas I was wondering if there was a consensus as to the quietest generator available for a Class B. I realize there are ordinances, etc. but I would like to be able to plan overnites in areas where a loud genny would draw Most seem to be using Onan MicroLite 2.5 or 2.8 generators in Class B. Although the Onan is reasonably quiet, it probably would not meet the original poster’s requirement.  The Honda EU series is nearly silent.  I was 10 feet from a Honda EU3000 recently and had to walk closer to even realize it was running. Brian Elfert

Response:

Db. is short for decibels and is always expressed as a ratio.

Cass, Educate yourself and go to; http://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/Decibel.html

Response:

I was wondering if there was a consensus as to the quietest generator available for a Class B. I realize there are ordinances, etc. but I would like to be able to plan overnites in areas where a loud genny would draw attention. Most seem to be using Onan MicroLite 2.5 or 2.8 generators in Class B.

Ours has a 2.8, mounted under the body, in the rear between the frame rails. It’s quiet enough, but certainly not enough not to disturb others in a "quiet" area. We also have a Honda EU3000i at home for emergency backup power. It is miraculously quiet, but I wouldn’t want to haul it around in a Class B and have to load and unload it to use it. For one thing, it would take up way too much room. For another, it’s bulky and heavy (134# dry, IIRC). And for yet another, you’d have to leave it sitting on the ground while it was running. It just might decide to "take a walk." If I were a thief (with a helper), I could have it in the back of a pickup truck and be pulling out of sight before you could pull your pants on and dash outside to see why your a/c suddenly went off…<g GB in NC

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Cass, don’t be so technical. The rating is the same most mfrs. seem to use, that of 10 feet from the unit. Chas

Response:

I was wondering if there was a consensus as to the quietest generator available for a Class B. I realize there are ordinances, etc. but I would like to be able to plan overnites in areas where a loud genny would draw Most seem to be using Onan MicroLite 2.5 or 2.8 generators in Class B. Although the Onan is reasonably quiet, it probably would not meet the original poster’s requirement.  The Honda EU series is nearly silent.  I was 10 feet from a Honda EU3000 recently and had to walk closer to even realize it was running. Brian Elfert

The Honda EU models certainly wouldn’t be an option in my opinion.  They would have to be stored inside the rig for travel and they have vented gas tank caps.  They would be very dangerous, as well as sitting in the floor taking up some of the valuable floor walking room.  The MicroLite series mount underneath a Class B and get their fuel from the van’s gas tank.  If you do a search on Class B Generator, you will see this is the choice of all the major manufacturer’s of Class B rigs. Tom J

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The Honda EU models certainly wouldn’t be an option in my opinion.  They would have to be stored inside the rig for travel and they have vented gas tank caps.

They have a little lever on the cap that lets you close the vent.  They’re a good option for TT’s, which generally don’t have a generator compartment. -Jeff Deeney-

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The Honda EU models certainly wouldn’t be an option in my opinion.  They would have to be stored inside the rig for travel and they have vented gas tank caps. They have a little lever on the cap that lets you close the vent.  They’re a good option for TT’s, which generally don’t have a generator compartment.

I have no problem with storing a generator any place but inside a home or RV where it also contains people.  This goes for anything else that contains gasoline.  I saw a neighbors house burn from a lawn ,mower stored in the basement with a leaking fuel line. That has registered on your mine for a long time, and I hope you never see it, and you won’t if you are safe with gasoline operated machinery. Tom J who can just see a gen set flying down the center of a Class B after the panic stop

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Tom, I don’t know who’s RV you are seeing that generator fly down, but it won’t be mine!  I don’t have to bang my head on the wall too many times!! Thanks for the heads up!! Chas

Response:

Tom, I don’t know who’s RV you are seeing that generator fly down, but it won’t be mine!  I don’t have to bang my head on the wall too many times!! Thanks for the heads up!! Chas

Glad I got through to at least one!! Many years of happy camping! Tom J

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I have an EU1000 which I use on my 18′ boat (to run the 6,000 BTU air conditioner). The generator is stored in the cuddy cabin when it’s not needed. The cuddy will sleep 2 and has sitting head room . When my wife and I both sleep aboard, there’s not enough room to make the bed without putting the generator outside, but when I’m alone, the generator stays below with me, less than 18" from my face while I’m sleeping. I’ve never thought to go to the effort of putting it outside when I’m alone because there’s absolutely no smell of gasoline or residual exhaust. For me, that little Honda is the perfect solution! YMMV If I was sure the EU2000 would handle the starting demand of the air conditioner on my TT, I’d buy one in a heartbeat; not hesitating to store it inside the trailer. And did you know, that you can parallel 2 of those little EU Hondas to double the output? Nick in Spartanburg, SC

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was wondering if there was a consensus as to the quietest generator available for a Class B. I realize there are ordinances, etc. but I would like to be able to plan overnites in areas where a loud genny would draw Most seem to be using Onan MicroLite 2.5 or 2.8 generators in Class B. Although the Onan is reasonably quiet, it probably would not meet the original poster’s requirement.  The Honda EU series is nearly silent.  I was 10 feet from a Honda EU3000 recently and had to walk closer to even realize it was running. Brian Elfert The Honda EU models certainly wouldn’t be an option in my opinion.  They would have to be stored inside the rig for travel and they have vented gas tank caps.  They would be very dangerous, as well as sitting in the floor taking up some of the valuable floor walking room.  The MicroLite series mount underneath a Class B and get their fuel from the van’s gas tank.  If you do a search on Class B Generator, you will see this is the choice of all the major manufacturer’s of Class B rigs. Tom J

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Question:

Just wondering. — Steve MHO ONLY….. YMM(and probably does)V

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From the ones that I have looked at I would guess the ALFA  SEE YA. Ed

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just wondering. — Steve MHO ONLY….. YMM(and probably does)V

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Just wondering. — Steve

Prevost, H3 Model. After that those rigs with a semi-monococ (sp) frame. (Monaco, Country Coach, Winnebago Advantage, to name a few). Least would be those rigs built on a Spartan or Freightliner Chassis with a full rail frame. — http://www.bobhatch.com Our web site about RV Stuff A work in progress

Response:

Which Pushers Have The Most Basement Space?

Kinda depends (like most things in real life <G). Generally, the longer wheelbase rigs have more basement space (duh), not to mention more storage upstairs. If you, like me, value wheelbase as a percent of overall length in the mid-50% range, you will be looking at diesel pushers 36-feet or longer anyway. Then, there is the matter of being able to conveniently USE the "theoretical" basement space. Joey beds (pull-out trays) make it a lot easier to get at stuff which is in the middle of your basement, but they reduce the theoretical volume of the basement. A trade off between maximum capacity and convenient capacity (not to mention the cost of the Joeys). I’ve been looking for durable plastic storage boxes, probably of varying sizes, to put on the Joey beds. Seems like stacking plastic boxes on plastic boxes would allow a lot more real storage than stacking loose stuff on top of loose stuff. And there are objects which don’t pack well, like bicycles and outboard motors. Even with the front wheel removed and handlebars turned 90-degrees, a bike takes beaucoup volume and is somewhat fragile. Let’s not forget weight considerations. All of the space in the world is useless unless the rig can safely carry the weight of stored objects and still have a margin of unused GVWR. For example, just 5% safety margin on a 30,000 pound GVWR rig is 1,500 pounds, a large chunk of some rigs so-called net carrying capacity (after liquids, groceries, and passengers are counted). Some rigs have worrisome gadgets built-in to the basement compartments. For example, propane tanks whose lines should not be stressed by flying fishing tackle boxes and inverters which probably should have clearance for convective cooling air instead of having a loose sleeping bag pushed against them. Did I already say that it kinda depends? –RW

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which Pushers Have The Most Basement Space? Kinda depends (like most things in real life <G). Generally, the longer wheelbase rigs have more basement space (duh), not to mention more storage upstairs. If you, like me, value wheelbase as a percent of overall length in the mid-50% range, you will be looking at diesel pushers 36-feet or longer anyway. Then, there is the matter of being able to conveniently USE the "theoretical" basement space. Joey beds (pull-out trays) make it a lot easier to get at stuff which is in the middle of your basement, but they reduce the theoretical volume of the basement. A trade off between maximum capacity and convenient capacity (not to mention the cost of the Joeys). I’ve been looking for durable plastic storage boxes, probably of varying sizes, to put on the Joey beds. Seems like stacking plastic boxes on plastic boxes would allow a lot more real storage than stacking loose stuff on top of loose stuff. And there are objects which don’t pack well, like bicycles and outboard motors. Even with the front wheel removed and handlebars turned 90-degrees, a bike takes beaucoup volume and is somewhat fragile. Let’s not forget weight considerations. All of the space in the world is useless unless the rig can safely carry the weight of stored objects and still have a margin of unused GVWR. For example, just 5% safety margin on a 30,000 pound GVWR rig is 1,500 pounds, a large chunk of some rigs so-called net carrying capacity (after liquids, groceries, and passengers are counted). Some rigs have worrisome gadgets built-in to the basement compartments. For example, propane tanks whose lines should not be stressed by flying fishing tackle boxes and inverters which probably should have clearance for convective cooling air instead of having a loose sleeping bag pushed against them. Did I already say that it kinda depends? –RW

Thanks for a very informative answer for my "how high is the sky" question. We will be using this basement space for product we will be selling, and not a lot for regular items a "normal" RVer would be taking.  I am really considering the "Joey trays" or making some of my own now that I have welding equipment once again.  Ease and speed of accessability is the key. I realize that it is all relative.  But I have seen some makes of coaches with lots of basement space, and some with relatively none.  I was asking in my circuitous way (no word usage flaming wars instigating intended) of which makers have a decent amount of basement space common to their coaches. — Steve MHO ONLY….. YMM(and probably does)V

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I am really considering the "Joey trays" or making some of my own now that I have welding equipment once again.  Ease and speed of accessability is the key.

Steve, I know you have thought of a cargo van, so I’ll address your cargo trays…. Check out this place…. http://bedslide.com/index2.shtml Hunter

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Then, there is the matter of being able to conveniently USE the "theoretical" basement space. Joey beds (pull-out trays) make it a lot easier to get at stuff which is in the middle of your basement, but they reduce the theoretical volume of the basement. A trade off between maximum capacity and convenient capacity (not to mention the cost of the Joeys).

Where can I find these ‘Joey beds’.  Camping World has something that is kinda a kit, but it doesn’t look too promising, plus they don’t stock them at the stores.  I really haven’t seen anything other than at Camping World. Brian Elfert

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http://bedslide.com/index2.shtml

I’ve been looking for cargo trays for my RV for a while. The stuff from Bedslide looks cool, but they don’t list any prices.  I can’t find anyone who lists a price on these.  Have you ever gotten a price on the BaySlide? After my weekend trip, I really need a cargo slide of some sort.  My cargo bay is five feet deep, but everything ends up stacked right at the very front of the compartment. Brian Elfert

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The stuff from Bedslide looks cool, but they don’t list any prices.  I can’t find anyone who lists a price on these.  Have you ever gotten a price on the BaySlide?

I think there’s an 800#, they are very nice to talk to. Hunter

Response:

Then, there is the matter of being able to conveniently USE the "theoretical" basement space. Joey beds (pull-out trays) make it a lot easier to get at stuff which is in the middle of your basement, but they reduce the theoretical volume of the basement. A trade off between maximum capacity and convenient capacity (not to mention the cost of the Joeys). Where can I find these ‘Joey beds’.  Camping World has something that is kinda a kit, but it doesn’t look too promising, plus they don’t stock them at the stores.  I really haven’t seen anything other than at Camping World. Brian Elfert

Hi, Brian. See http://www.joeybed.com/. I can’t say that this (well-established) brand is the best value or best for a particular rig or owner. The idea is simple enough, so there may be cheaper and/or better alternative brands. Hopefully, someone who has owned more than one brand will add some comparative info. –RW

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Hi, Brian. See http://www.joeybed.com/. I can’t say that this (well-established) brand is the best value or best for a particular rig or owner. The idea is simple enough, so there may be cheaper and/or better alternative brands. Hopefully, someone who has owned more than one brand will add some comparative info.

Thanks.  I didn’t realize Joey Bed was an actual brand.  I thought it was some sort of slang word for a cargo slide or something. Brian Elfert

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writes: God is great!  Life is good. — Steve

Wow. Talk about a life altering year. Congratulations. Lon

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After that 5 way bypass and aortic valve replacement last June, I have been going 90 miles an hour with my hair on fire.  I have been traveling, camping,hunting, fishing, ATVing, and starting a new business or two.  Just got back Saturday from ten days in Northern Nevada, and going to San Diego Wednesday for ten days of "honeymooning."  Got married Valentine’s day. Been traveling two weeks out of every month, and loving it.  Will be gone out of this hot hellhole most of the summer, too.  Ready to get a pusher and do it in style now.  And all deductible, too.  Ya gotta love it! Bounced in and out of the group lurking, but was too busy to get involved and set you all straight.  ;-)  Looks like some of the old regulars have been doing a little proxy work for me in my absence. God is great!  Life is good. — Steve MHO ONLY….. YMM(and probably does)V

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Just wondering. — Steve MHO ONLY….. YMM(and probably does)V Steve! How the heck are you. Long time no read. Where ya been? Lon

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They put a 27,000 BTU air conditioner in the basement. If you want to talk about ceiling height, though…

Maybe that’s why it needs such a huge air conditioner…. Hunter

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writes: I realize that it is all relative.  But I have seen some makes of coaches with lots of basement space, and some with relatively none.  I was asking in my circuitous way (no word usage flaming wars instigating intended) of which makers have a decent amount of basement space common to their coaches. — Steve MHO ONLY….. YMM(and probably does)V

At the Tampa RV show, there was a MH built on a Peterbuilt truck chassis, which had a very large garage in the back with the bedroom above it. Talk about basement space. This guy had a couple Harleys he parked in it. Lon

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writes: Just wondering. — Steve MHO ONLY….. YMM(and probably does)V

Steve! How the heck are you. Long time no read. Where ya been? Lon

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From the ones that I have looked at I would guess the ALFA  SEE YA. Ed Just wondering.

Strange reply. We have spent the last week at RV lots here in Mesa, AZ, and one thing we didn’t like about the See Ya was the meager basement space compare to others. They put a 27,000 BTU air conditioner in the basement. If you want to talk about ceiling height, though… Dapper Dave

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… We will be using this basement space for product we will be selling, and not a lot for regular items a "normal" RVer would be taking.  I am really considering the "Joey trays" or making some of my own now that I have welding equipment once again.  Ease and speed of accessability is the key.

Ahh, another roadwarrior. Gimme the secret handshake. Been there, done that, though it was 25 years ago. I used a full-sized van with a product display at the side doors, another one at the back doors, and some inventory hidden behind them. Made big loops from San Fran to San Diego to El Paso, up the Front Range and over to Seattle. Even slept on top of the inventory a few times. Those were the days, but my back still hurts from sleeping on those damned boxes. Anyway, making your own might be the best answer, particularly if you want a special display of your products for customers. But keep in mind the resale value which professionally made, general purpose Joey-types’ could add to your rig. (Actually, options and add-ons are usually heavily discounted or ignored by buyers of used coaches, he said, arguing with himself.) I realize that it is all relative.  But I have seen some makes of coaches with lots of basement space, and some with relatively none.  I was asking in my circuitous way (no word usage flaming wars instigating intended) of which makers have a decent amount of basement space common to their coaches.

Please don’t ignore the weight issue previously discussed. Of course, I have no idea how heavy your inventory will be — maybe trivial or maybe you sell bowling balls. Also, you may want to add some lights if the customers are going to come to your rig. Round about Xmas, it gets dark early, particularly in northern-tier states. –RW

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http://bedslide.com/index2.shtml I’ve been looking for cargo trays for my RV for a while. The stuff from Bedslide looks cool, but they don’t list any prices.  I can’t find anyone who lists a price on these.  Have you ever gotten a price on the BaySlide? After my weekend trip, I really need a cargo slide of some sort.  My cargo bay is five feet deep, but everything ends up stacked right at the very front of the compartment. Brian Elfert

Brian, you might think about the large plastic storage boxes I mentioned in my verbose post — the kind you see at Office Despot and Lowe’s. Roughly a two-foot cube with a removable top. They would compartmentalize your stuff (maps and files, clothes, food, etc.) and, if you keep the lightweight ones to the outside, you could remove one (lightweight) box, then drag out the box behind it. If you have a bad back, you might even reach in with some kind of hook-on-a-pole and slide it toward you. What I am trying to settle in my mind is what sizes. Maybe I’ll start with cardboard boxes to test sizes, then get a couple of plastics at a time to further prove their suitability. Not as elegant as a real Joey bed, but probably a hullava lot cheaper and maybe 90% as convenient. –RW

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Question:

I have recently been in hospital yet again, a psychotic depression, got out, just coming out of it all, then find that (for the thrid time) I have been poisoned by litium.  Apparently I don’t seem to be able to reach the therapeutic dose without becoming toxic.  I’m worried about my liver.  I’m worried about my life.  I’m worried about everything.  I can’t think on lithium, I can’t think on tegretol and I can’t seem to function without one or the other.  I want my life back.  What if I stopped it all slowly?  I can’t tell my pdoc because he won’t agree and he will probably just tell me to get another doc who can do his job.  I trust him, sort of, and I’m scared, and trapped, and I need to get my self under control.  Hell, I don’t know what to do.  I’m ok now, but in three months I’ll probably fall down again, thats how it seems to go, and boy do I fall!  I have an executive sort of job, and a lot of people are dependent on my and I have been off work now for 2 months.  Back next Monday.  Any thoughts, very welcome.  Not feeling sorry for myself, I need to take control, I will if I can, someone help?  Thanks, Zoe

Response:

Hi Ros,        Lithium and tegretol didn’t work well for me either. Zyprexa was very good for me but now I’m on Geodon which is even better. The zyprexa cost about 600.00 a  month and the geodon cost about 225.00 a month. The difference between the two is that geodon doesn’t make you drowsy or gain weight like the zyprexa can.  Both have been very good for my manic symptons but the geodon has been good for both manic and depressive. If your doctor doesn’t want you to try these great drugs, switch doctors and tell him to shove it. good luck

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have recently been in hospital yet again, a psychotic depression, got out, just coming out of it all, then find that (for the thrid time) I have been poisoned by litium.  Apparently I don’t seem to be able to reach the therapeutic dose without becoming toxic.  I’m worried about my liver.  I’m worried about my life.  I’m worried about everything.  I can’t think on lithium, I can’t think on tegretol and I can’t seem to function without one or the other.  I want my life back.  What if I stopped it all slowly?  I can’t tell my pdoc because he won’t agree and he will probably just tell me to get another doc who can do his job.  I trust him, sort of, and I’m scared, and trapped, and I need to get my self under control.  Hell, I don’t know what to do.  I’m ok now, but in three months I’ll probably fall down again, thats how it seems to go, and boy do I fall!  I have an executive sort of job, and a lot of people are dependent on my and I have been off work now for 2 months.  Back next Monday.  Any thoughts, very welcome. Not feeling sorry for myself, I need to take control, I will if I can, someone help?  Thanks, Zoe

Response:

Hi Folks, This is Dan, dropping in from A.S.A.D. I’m 37, diagnosed BP & ADHD when I was 33. I’ve been blessed with four years of great behavioral modification therapy and a really good psychopharmacologist. Still have my ups and downs but life is a whole lot different, and better, than it used to be. I’ve been on quite a few different meds over the years and I have a question about one in particular so I figured I’d see what was happening over in this NG. To make a long story really short, Depakote almost ruined my life, Paxil & Zoloft are the two ssri’s that work for me, and Zyprexa changed my life so much for the better that I am still amazed when I think about it. It was the first time I’d ever felt "relief" in the most pure sense of the word, and it showed me a world of consistency and balance that I never dreamed possible. My psychologist helped me make many behavioral changes that, in my opinion, would never have been possible without the meds. Of course, I put on 60lbs in four months. None of my damn pants fit. But it was so worth it. We tried a few other meds, like geodon, that would be a little more weight-neutral, but with no luck. (By the way – a note about geodon: It does work well for many people, but it has the potential to cause heart problems in some. Something to do with a PQ ratio or something. Not trying to be an alarmist, but my pdoc advises ekg, stress-test, or a general physical prior to starting geodon). Finally, I wound up on Risperdal, which worked great but flattened things out too much for me. I just didn’t want to do anything.  But the quality of my life was still better than before, so I stuck it out. Things were pretty good in general, but recently the added weight has been catching up with me, so we decided to go off risperdal and see what happens. Went from 2mg to 1mg to .5mg and now I’ve been off of it for 5 days. The weight is falling off of me, thank God. However, I’ve felt sick for the past few days, and I’d like your opinion on whether or not it’s the going off of risperdal that’s causing me to feel this way. Basically, I have dull headaches, get the chills quite often, like, whenever I move, would sleep 24×7 if my wife/job would permit it, and I can’t stop sweating. We have a 15,000 BTU air conditioner going, and I’m sitting in front of a fan, and I’m still sweating. Any of this sound familiar? Does it go away once you readjust? If I feel that I need to go back to the med, my doctor wants to try Trileptol (or something like that). Any advice either way concerning that med? Thanks for any help. Take care, Dan Sowers

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Ros,        Lithium and tegretol didn’t work well for me either. Zyprexa was very good for me but now I’m on Geodon which is even better. The zyprexa cost about 600.00 a  month and the geodon cost about 225.00 a month. The difference between the two is that geodon doesn’t make you drowsy or gain weight like the zyprexa can.  Both have been very good for my manic symptons but the geodon has been good for both manic and depressive. If your doctor doesn’t want you to try these great drugs, switch doctors and tell him to shove it. good luck I have recently been in hospital yet again, a psychotic depression, got out, just coming out of it all, then find that (for the thrid time) I have been poisoned by litium.  Apparently I don’t seem to be able to reach the therapeutic dose without becoming toxic.  I’m worried about my liver. I’m worried about my life.  I’m worried about everything.  I can’t think on lithium, I can’t think on tegretol and I can’t seem to function without one or the other.  I want my life back.  What if I stopped it all slowly?  I can’t tell my pdoc because he won’t agree and he will probably just tell me to get another doc who can do his job.  I trust him, sort of, and I’m scared, and trapped, and I need to get my self under control.  Hell, I don’t know what to do.  I’m ok now, but in three months I’ll probably fall down again, thats how it seems to go, and boy do I fall!  I have an executive sort of job, and a lot of people are dependent on my and I have been off work now for 2 months.  Back next Monday.  Any thoughts, very welcome. Not feeling sorry for myself, I need to take control, I will if I can, someone help?  Thanks, Zoe

Response:

Thank you all.  I don’t know, have never heard of Goedon either – I’m in Australia, and when it will arrive on these fair shores is anyones guess. Any alternative medicines anyone know about?  I really want to stop all this stuff…. Thanks, Zoe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Ros,        Lithium and tegretol didn’t work well for me either. Zyprexa was very good for me but now I’m on Geodon which is even better. The zyprexa cost about 600.00 a  month and the geodon cost about 225.00 a month. The difference between the two is that geodon doesn’t make you drowsy or gain weight like the zyprexa can.  Both have been very good for my manic symptons but the geodon has been good for both manic and depressive. If your doctor doesn’t want you to try these great drugs, switch doctors and tell him to shove it. good luck I have recently been in hospital yet again, a psychotic depression, got out, just coming out of it all, then find that (for the thrid time) I have been poisoned by litium.  Apparently I don’t seem to be able to reach the therapeutic dose without becoming toxic.  I’m worried about my liver. I’m worried about my life.  I’m worried about everything.  I can’t think on lithium, I can’t think on tegretol and I can’t seem to function without one or the other.  I want my life back.  What if I stopped it all slowly?  I can’t tell my pdoc because he won’t agree and he will probably just tell me to get another doc who can do his job.  I trust him, sort of, and I’m scared, and trapped, and I need to get my self under control.  Hell, I don’t know what to do.  I’m ok now, but in three months I’ll probably fall down again, thats how it seems to go, and boy do I fall!  I have an executive sort of job, and a lot of people are dependent on my and I have been off work now for 2 months.  Back next Monday.  Any thoughts, very welcome. Not feeling sorry for myself, I need to take control, I will if I can, someone help?  Thanks, Zoe

Response:

Geodon has only been out for a year in the USA and it is a wonderful drug! I’m currently on the max dose of 80 mg 2x daily and I love it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes I’ve never heard of geodon & it isn’t listed in the Nurse’s PDR. Do you know the generic name for it, & are you sure that you’re spelling the name right? Are you in the U.S.? You appear to be, judging from the headers of your post.

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Question:

Hi Dan, hope you are having a nice day On 26-Apr-02 At About 07:55:23, Dan O. wrote to All  DO There are other things that will reduce the ability of an air  DO conditioner to do its job. If direct sun light shines on its  DO condenser, that will limit the amoun of heat it can remove. This is a myth. sunlight on a condenser will not have an affect on it.  -= HvacTech2 <=- .. "Fascinating," said Spock, watching Kirk’s lousy acting.                   ___ TagDude 0.92

Question:

i have an a/c that recommends a 3.5k min gen i have a 2.8k gen. the gen will quit as soon as i put on the a/c, is it possible to change the compressor or replace the a/c with a smaller one the present is 13500 btu. thanks for any advice don

Response:

i have an a/c that recommends a 3.5k min gen i have a 2.8k gen. the gen will quit as soon as i put on the a/c, is it possible to change the compressor or replace the a/c with a smaller one the present is 13500 btu.

Coleman makes a 7100 btu a/c that required 8.2 amps vs the 14.5 that the 13500 btu unit requires.  Hole in the ceiling is the same size. However, are you SURE you want to reduce the cooling capacity by that much?  You didn’t indicate the size of your RV or where you travel, but the 13500 in my 30′ 5er just barely does the job during the Texas summer. James Summers RVing, woodworking, IBM-ret 1996 turbo-diesel Chevy + 1994 30′ Carri-Lite fifth-wheel

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I agree — upgrade the generator. AI Nut – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i have an a/c that recommends a 3.5k min gen i have a 2.8k gen. the gen will quit as soon as i put on the a/c, is it possible to change the compressor or replace the a/c with a smaller one the present is 13500 btu. Coleman makes a 7100 btu a/c that required 8.2 amps vs the 14.5 that the 13500 btu unit requires.  Hole in the ceiling is the same size. However, are you SURE you want to reduce the cooling capacity by that much?  You didn’t indicate the size of your RV or where you travel, but the 13500 in my 30′ 5er just barely does the job during the Texas summer. James Summers RVing, woodworking, IBM-ret 1996 turbo-diesel Chevy + 1994 30′ Carri-Lite fifth-wheel

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i have an a/c that recommends a 3.5k min gen i have a 2.8k gen. the gen will quit as soon as i put on the a/c, is it possible to change the compressor or replace the a/c with a smaller one the present is 13500 btu.

Two choices:  little a/c or big gen. Society is always taken by surprise at any new example of common sense. [R W Emerson] Will KD3XR

Response:

i have an a/c that recommends a 3.5k min gen i have a 2.8k gen. the gen will quit as soon as i put on the a/c, is it possible to change the compressor or replace the a/c with a smaller one the present is 13500 btu. thanks for any advice don

        It depends on how old the AC is, plus, whether it has a "start kit" installed. Most air conditioners have a starting circuit which has either a relay and capacitor, or a PTC device and capacitor, but I have seen some Coleman brand air conditioners which came without any such circuit (long story- but boils down to being low bidder). If yours is one of these, a simple rewiring and addition of some parts would let the AC start.         A 2.8 KW should start and run a 13.5 KBTU A/C- assuming a fairly new AC, and a high quality generator (not a home center type with a lawn mower engine). — Chris Bryant Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com

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thanks for reminding me i have a winneabago  21ft

Response:

i have an a/c that recommends a 3.5k min gen i have a 2.8k gen. the gen will quit as soon as i put on the a/c, is it possible to change the compressor or replace the a/c with a smaller one the present is 13500 btu. thanks for any advice don

You didn’t say what brand of generator you have. My Onan 2.8 Microlite will run one *approved* (by Onan) 13,500 btu air conditioner. You might be able to replace the air conditioner with one of the same capacity. Going with a smaller air condtitioner would probably mean that you’ll be sweating it out on the hotter days.

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 There are a couple of different air conditioners available, down to a low of 10.5 amp draw on startup, where mine calls for 21.5. I was also told that the real draw can be much higher, only for a milli-second, where the grid can supply this high demand and the breaker will not let go for this short duration, but your generator only provides a maximum amperage no matter how short a time. The cost I was quoted was less than $1000.00 Canadian which should be around $700 U.S. or less.  If you need the actual brands etc. e-mail me and I will call the local shop and get them for you. Robby

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i have an a/c that recommends a 3.5k min gen i have a 2.8k gen. the gen will quit as soon as i put on the a/c, is it possible to change the compressor or replace the a/c with a smaller one the present is 13500 btu. thanks for any advice don

Response:

Question:

In a previous post you wrote; Maybe one of you has more spare cash than me…I’ve been watching this glycol chiller on eBay, but it’s moved out of my price range. Still a good deal, though:  Wow that is nice! One question though, do those things come in smaller sizes? I can now see the use of such an item where I only recently learned of their existance. If they are avialable in small sized units how small do they get?                            Steve

Response:

In your previous post you wrote; Why don’t you take an old 5000 BTU Air Conditioner (they’re only good for a very very small room on a not so hot day) and take the blower fan out. Fashion a reservoir around the evaporator section and use a small pump to circulate propylene glycol from the reservoir to the lines? I used a small aquarium pump to circulate the melted ice water in my jockey box through the tower’s glycol lines. A $20 pump was barely adequate, but I imaging a large aquarium pump or some kind of pump from Granger, etc. would do the trick. You can get these crappy air conditioners for almost nothing. I bought a 12000 BTU air conditioner for my walk-in new at Home Depot last year for $300. You can see the setup below. I got a 6 tap tower from a friend that had elbow grease) and viola… I later made a trick bracket out of angle iron bent and welded to fit the inside of the lid to make the tower rigid, it’s not shown here.  Wow Chris, That was some good work and a great salvaging effort to boot. Good job!                             Steve

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I’ve thought about taking an air conditioner and making a small walk-in box, but I don’t really have the room.  The glycol chillers for draft systems (like that Dove on eBay) have a procon rotary vane pump (the same as used in a carbonator pump), so they can pump several hundred feet. Great for running a beer line from your keg in the garage, to the tap mounted in the Kitchen…hint hint!  I gotta run a water line to the kitchen under the house for the icemaker, and I figured while I was at it, I’d upgrade it with beer. Just shove the beer line through a PVC pipe, along with the glycol line, and it keeps the whole run cold.  In my case, I’d have to run a beer line about 40 to 50 feet.  I used to be an electrician, and did all the electrical for a big club called The Graduate.  The satellite bar was something like 250 feet from the walk-in where the kegs were.  The only problem with a system like that at home is you need beer gas (nitrogen and CO2) to get the pressure up high enough to dispense, without overcabonating.

A nitrogen generator is only about 3K.  A nitrogen blender is $435-$650. You could put in large enough tubing to not restrict the pressure.  3/8" polyethelene beverage tubing only gives 0.07 psi/ft.  So in the 50′ run the pressure drop would only be 3.5 psi.  Then fine tune the pressure drop using 3/16" restrictor tubing and the height differential to get the desired drop and skip the whole nitrogen mess. Cheers, Mike

Response:

on your previous post you showed your pictures; And here it is:  Well, That was fun! And I might add I’m envious!

Response:

I’ll post a picture of the small one I have tonight.  

And here it is: http://theultralist.com/brewing/chiller.html Regards, Mike Sharp

Response:

I have two water fountains that I have been meaning to use a fermentation chillers.  I figure that all I need is a pump and a thermostat. —  Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at http://www.listermann.com Take a look at the anti-telemarketer forum.  It is my new hobby!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In your previous post you wrote; Why don’t you take an old 5000 BTU Air Conditioner (they’re only good for a very very small room on a not so hot day) and take the blower fan out. Fashion a reservoir around the evaporator section and use a small pump to circulate propylene glycol from the reservoir to the lines? I used a small aquarium pump to circulate the melted ice water in my jockey box through the tower’s glycol lines. A $20 pump was barely adequate, but I imaging a large aquarium pump or some kind of pump from Granger, etc. would do the trick. You can get these crappy air conditioners for almost nothing. I bought a 12000 BTU air conditioner for my walk-in new at Home Depot last year for $300. You can see the setup below. I got a 6 tap tower from a friend that had elbow grease) and viola… I later made a trick bracket out of angle iron bent and welded to fit the inside of the lid to make the tower rigid, it’s not shown here.  Wow Chris, That was some good work and a great salvaging effort to boot. Good job!                             Steve

Response:

In a previous post you wrote; Maybe one of you has more spare cash than me…I’ve been watching this glycol chiller on eBay, but it’s moved out of my price range. Still a good deal, though:  Wow that is nice! One question though, do those things come in smaller sizes? I can now see the use of such an item where I only recently learned of their existance. If they are avialable in small sized units how small do they get?                            Steve

I’ll post a picture of the small one I have tonight.  It’s a standard beverage service product.  I’m sure Foxx has them.  The one I have is like a jockey box, but with it’s own compressor.  No ice needed.  But it’s pretty small–I think 1200 BTU, but I can’t recall for sure. The one in that eBay listing is frequently used when you want to run soda or beer (or both) a long distance, like from a walk-in to a bar on the other side of a building. That’s why it uses a procon vane pump (which can produce about 250 psi).  The glycol line runs with the beverage lines, and keeps everything cold.  Look at Chris’s photo of the inside of the beer tower.  There is a line that comes up, goes through an aluminum heat transfer block on each tap faucet, and then returns down the tower.  This is the glycol line. I never thought of Dan’s idea to use a drinking fountain.  That’s a good one!  Hey Dan, what’s the BTU rating of the ones you have?  I’ll bet you can get them from junk dealers real cheap. Regards, Mike Sharp

Response:

A nitrogen generator is only about 3K.  A nitrogen blender is $435-$650. You could put in large enough tubing to not restrict the pressure.  3/8" polyethelene beverage tubing only gives 0.07 psi/ft.  So in the 50′ run the pressure drop would only be 3.5 psi.  Then fine tune the pressure drop using 3/16" restrictor tubing and the height differential to get the desired drop and skip the whole nitrogen mess. Cheers, Mike

That’s basically what I had planned…for a run as short as mine. Haven’t mentioned this to SWMBO yet, though…I hope she’ll just be glad that the icemaker finally works!  Not too many places in the kitchen where I could add a beer tower.  So my deviant mind was thinking about one of the in-the-counter drinking water faucets.  Only this one dispenses beer. Convenient, because I don’t have to worry about a drip tray, if it goes to the sink. And if the idea is a bust, or we sell the house, it’s a simple matter to plumb it into the main water line. Regards, Mike Sharp

Response:

Maybe one of you has more spare cash than me…I’ve been watching this glycol chiller on eBay, but it’s moved out of my price range. Still a good deal, though: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1701230994 It’s a lot bigger than mine (4000 BTU), and brand new, to boot. Regards (covetously) Mike Sharp

Response:

Maybe one of you has more spare cash than me It’s a lot bigger than mine (4000 BTU), and brand new, to boot.

Why don’t you take an old 5000 BTU Air Conditioner (they’re only good for a very very small room on a not so hot day) and take the blower fan out. Fashion a reservoir around the evaporator section and use a small pump to circulate propylene glycol from the reservoir to the lines? I used a small aquarium pump to circulate the melted ice water in my jockey box through the tower’s glycol lines. A $20 pump was barely adequate, but I imaging a large aquarium pump or some kind of pump from Granger, etc. would do the trick. You can get these crappy air conditioners for almost nothing. I bought a 12000 BTU air conditioner for my walk-in new at Home Depot last year for $300. You can see the setup below. I got a 6 tap tower from a friend that had elbow grease) and viola… I later made a trick bracket out of angle iron bent and welded to fit the inside of the lid to make the tower rigid, it’s not shown here. http://www.ibrewbeer.com/jockeybox/ Total cost about $200. Chris

Response:

Well, I’ve thought about taking an air conditioner and making a small walk-in box, but I don’t really have the room.  The glycol chillers for draft systems (like that Dove on eBay) have a procon rotary vane pump (the same as used in a carbonator pump), so they can pump several hundred feet. Great for running a beer line from your keg in the garage, to the tap mounted in the Kitchen…hint hint!  I gotta run a water line to the kitchen under the house for the icemaker, and I figured while I was at it, I’d upgrade it with beer. Just shove the beer line through a PVC pipe, along with the glycol line, and it keeps the whole run cold.  In my case, I’d have to run a beer line about 40 to 50 feet.  I used to be an electrician, and did all the electrical for a big club called The Graduate.  The satellite bar was something like 250 feet from the walk-in where the kegs were.  The only problem with a system like that at home is you need beer gas (nitrogen and CO2) to get the pressure up high enough to dispense, without overcabonating. The Dove chiller on eBay was a much more reasonable price of about $200-300 until shortly before the auction ended…Brand new in the box, and designed for the application.  I also want to run glycol to a yet-to-be-acquired conical fermenter, as well as a much smaller cold box. That way I’m running only one compressor.  Also, to cool wort, if possible.  Right now I use a homemade CF wort chiller that works fine, but the small glycol beverage unit I acquired a couple of months ago has 4 stainless lines running through a heat exchanger in the glycol tank.  It’s designed for cooling soda water and the like, similar to your jockey box, but without the icechest and coldplate.  I’m not sure it’s up to the task, but I’ll find out this weekend.  I might need all four passes to get the wort down to pitching temp. You don’t have trouble running your small AC at 32 deg F? I would have thought the evaporator pressures wouldn’t work out so well for a chiller running at that temp. By the way, you sure shined up that beer tower nice!  It looks pretty bitchin.  You’re welcome to bring it over and test it out any time you like.  ;^)  I notice that your tower has the line for glycol too. Are you using that for your setup? Regards, Mike Sharp – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe one of you has more spare cash than me It’s a lot bigger than mine (4000 BTU), and brand new, to boot. Why don’t you take an old 5000 BTU Air Conditioner (they’re only good for a very very small room on a not so hot day) and take the blower fan out. Fashion a reservoir around the evaporator section and use a small pump to circulate propylene glycol from the reservoir to the lines? I used a small aquarium pump to circulate the melted ice water in my jockey box through the tower’s glycol lines. A $20 pump was barely adequate, but I imaging a large aquarium pump or some kind of pump from Granger, etc. would do the trick. You can get these crappy air conditioners for almost nothing. I bought a 12000 BTU air conditioner for my walk-in new at Home Depot last year for $300. You can see the setup below. I got a 6 tap tower from a friend that had elbow grease) and viola… I later made a trick bracket out of angle iron bent and welded to fit the inside of the lid to make the tower rigid, it’s not shown here. http://www.ibrewbeer.com/jockeybox/ Total cost about $200. Chris

Response:

Question:

The Honda EU2000i should just manage a 13,500btu air con.  Mayberry’s should be able to advise you on experience.  These Honda units are just pure *magic* and nothing comes close in quality or design. http://www.mayberrys.com/honda/generator/models/eu2000i.htm —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Need Advise… Will a 3K Generator with 25 Amp Max/23.3 Amp rated run a 13500 btu air conditioner… Or should I ask, what is the current draw of a 13500 btu A/C ???? Thanks Dennis

Response:

The Honda EU2000i should just manage a 13,500btu air con.  Mayberry’s should be able to advise you on experience.  These Honda units are just pure *magic* and nothing comes close in quality or design. http://www.mayberrys.com/honda/generator/models/eu2000i.htm

See my post entitled "EU2000i + Air Conditioner = Not Good Enough" or something very close to that. I found on my last trip that my EU2000I would run my 11,000 BTU air conditioner MOST of the time, but not all of the time. I can’t really recommend the EU2000i for running any but the tiniest of air conditioners (how much smaller than 11,000 BTU to RV air conditioners get?).  I do plan to get another one and run them in parallel when I want to run the A/C. I also enthusiastically endorse Mayberry’s as the place to go on the net to buy your Honda generator.

Response:

I also enthusiastically endorse Mayberry’s as the place to go on the net to buy your Honda generator.

I have been spectacularly unsuccessful in dealing with Mayberry’s twice now.  I tried to buy a Honda GX31 engine from them last December.  It took a week to get each question answered by email and I never did get a firm price quote.  I tried again to buy another of the same engine a couple of weeks ago.  Continuous busy for a day (guessing phone off the hook) and then no one available to talk to me the next. That prompted me to look elsewhere.  I ended up buying from these folks: http://www.tulsaenginewarehouse.com/ Nice friendly people who could actually answer a technical question, a price $30 cheaper than Mayberry’s (which is significant on a $200 engine) and free shipping. Another good place, one I chatted with before I decided on the above is http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/ Again, nice friendly folks and great prices.  The difference was that Tulsa Engines shipped free and Small Engine Warehouse didn’t. One other thing to note is that both of these outfits are actually on the web with web stores.  Mayberry’s isn’t.  They force you to the phones to actually order. John — John De Armond http://personal.bellsouth.net/~johngd/ Cleveland, occupied TN

Response:

Need Advise… Will a 3K Generator with 25 Amp Max/23.3 Amp rated run a 13500 btu air conditioner… Or should I ask, what is the current draw of a 13500 btu A/C ???? Thanks Dennis

        Yes, no, maybe.. generally, a cheap 3KW genset will *just* be able to start a roof A/C (or sometimes not), whereas a decent smaller one will easily. The running current will be in the 15-1700 watt range (13-16 amps), with starting current will be typically twice that. — Chris Bryant Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com On RVing-RV TV about RVs, by RVers: http://www.onrving.com On RVing Forums- http://www.onrving.com/forums/default.asp  

Response:

Need Advise… Will a 3K Generator with 25 Amp Max/23.3 Amp rated run a 13500 btu air conditioner… Or should I ask, what is the current draw of a 13500 btu A/C ???? Thanks Dennis

Response:

Question:

why if you look the specifications does a 5000 btu air conditioner draw less wattage than a 5000 btu electric heater? what am I missing here?

Response:

Here is a more technical/mathematical explanation, if that is what you were after: I’ll assume you’re referring to btu’s from Heat Strips.  If that is the case, for every watt of power you will recieve 3.415 (roughly) btu’s of heat.  SO, 5000btu/3.415btu per watt is roughly 1.5kW of power consumed to supply 5000btu of heat.  That’s not even a single 5kW strip bank.  But in the case of Strip heat at 230 volts applied, and apparent power being Volts X Amps, 1.4kW/230V = a 6.5 Amp draw of power.  Add in the amp draw of the Blower multiplied by applied Voltage, and you get it’s wattage consumption.  Add the wattages together and you have the total wattage used for heating.  STRIP heat has never been known as the most "economical" form of heating. In the case of an Air Conditioner, you are talking a greater capacity of cooling for a lessor expenditure of power.  In the case of 5000btu’s, we’re at less than half a ton of cooling (one "ton" of refridgeration is 12,000btu’s). The total Wattage pulled by a very basic HeatPump system operating at or above its balance point will be the total of current draw for each of the Compressor, Out Door Fan, and Indoor Fan (Blower), and possibly the Reversing Valve solinoid and Defrost Timer Clock moter (if applicable), multiplied by the Applied Voltage for each.  This gives the apparent power.  Because of the efficiency of the compressor at "moving" the heat, it requires less power per btu than the strips; Or, said another way, it supplies more btu’s for the same amount of power.  This is also why Heat Pumps have COP’s and EER’s that show their efficiency.   BUT, math not withstanding, it’s like the other poster said:  HeatPumps are more efficient than strips. Hope this helps

Response:

Question:

Another question that has arisen since I’ve been looking at the Hondas is it says the 12VDC output is ONLY for charging batteries.  Does this mean it cannot be used as a 12VDC power source and must only be used to charge a battery while none of the appliances are on? As it is I didnt get a book for my 12 volt converter and I dont know how many amps it charges at or just how "automatic" the charger is, but I was thinking it would be better to unplug the AC from the generator and charge the battery in my TT directly.  I do not know how to disconnect the battery charger circuit in my converter (1997 Skyline Layton).  My trailer is about 50 miles away right now so I can’t go look to see what brand the converter is.

Sorry, you’re out of my scope of knowledge on such things. Someone else will help, I’m sure. GB in NC

Response:

Hi Jim, We have a 13,500 on our camper and run it with a Honda EU3000. This generator starts our AC easily. The fuel efficiency and low noise output is very impressive. It isn’t as convenient as a built in unit but my wife and I like it just fine. From inside the camper you can’t hear the generator at all with the blower on the AC going. Even outside standing beside it the sound is just a low purr. It is more expensive than other units of the same output but we think it has been money well spent. Take care! Chris Medico – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HI, Can someone tell me what the minumum generator is for a 7100 BTU air conditioner?  I have a 13500 on my TT and the book says it needs at least a 3500 watt generator, but it is not clear on the 7100 unit. I’m thinking of getting a Honda EX2500 but I’m not certain it will be able to start the A/C. Also, I would like to know how big of a generator it would take to start a 700 watt microwave (I may opt for a smaller generator and get an evaporative cooler instead).  Will the Honda EX1000 do the job? Thanks, Jim Before you buy.

Response:

A previous post in this thread stated that a 13500 BTU RoofAir will operate just fine on an Onan 2500 watt generator. If you’re referring to my post, note that I said 2800 (2.8Kw) watts, not 2500. (The propane version of the Microlite is 2500Kw.)

I’ve realized for some time that I need to get glasses… I guess now would be a good time ;o) However — a big fat "oops" is in order here. I just went out to my van and dug a little deeper, and I found out that my roof air is an 11,000 btu, not 13,500. The info sheet I have covers both sizes, and I had to remove the filter and look inside the unit to see the model number.

Ummm, er, well, I mistakenly called the Honda generator an EX2500 when what I was really talking about was the EM2500 (XK1). If the 11000 will start and run with our 2800 watt Onan then is sounds very likely that a 7100 would run from a 2300 watt Honda.  I also noticed that the current draw (running) is only about 20% or so lower for the 7100 vs the 13500.  Since 2500 watts is roughly 30% less than 2500 watts then hopefully (for my situation) the difference is in the starting surge. This would explain why, as I have said here in the past, I have no trouble running it — along with other devices simultaneously — on a 15-amp circuit or on my 2.8Kw generator. The info clearly states that the minimum size generator required for my unit is 2500 watts; for the 13,500 the minimum is indeed 3500 watts, as you stated earlier in the thread. the Onan is designed and built to be run in an enclosure and the Honda is not. Certainly something to consider if that’s your intent.

I believe in carbon monoxide poisoning so I’ll stick with keeping it outside. Another question that has arisen since I’ve been looking at the Hondas is it says the 12VDC output is ONLY for charging batteries.  Does this mean it cannot be used as a 12VDC power source and must only be used to charge a battery while none of the appliances are on? As it is I didnt get a book for my 12 volt converter and I dont know how many amps it charges at or just how "automatic" the charger is, but I was thinking it would be better to unplug the AC from the generator and charge the battery in my TT directly.  I do not know how to disconnect the battery charger circuit in my converter (1997 Skyline Layton).  My trailer is about 50 miles away right now so I can’t go look to see what brand the converter is. GB in NC

Before you buy.

Response:

A previous post in this thread stated that a 13500 BTU RoofAir will operate just fine on an Onan 2500 watt generator.  Other than the price I dont really know the difference between an Onan and a Honda of the same output rating.  I suspect the Onan is superior, but perhaps it costs twice as much (??)

Though it hasn’t been mentioned here yet, Honda makes an RV generator in addition to their portable units.  I have not had a chance to examine a Honda RV generator in person yet but based in my past experience, I’d give the quality edge to Honda.  In terms of portable generators, there really isn’t anyone who can compete with Honda in terms of quality and functionality.  Their engines are simply little jewels on the inside.  Honda also seems to be able to elicit the most clever and high quality engineering from their staff of any major manufacturer I can think of. Someone else mentioned an "Inverter" type generator as opposed to an alternator type that produces 120 VAC directly.  I assume the inverter type uses a lower (24VDC?) voltage and converts it to AC.  Sounds nice,  but don’t 2500 watt sine wave inverters cost thousands of dollars?

The inverter in this type generator is effectively invisible to you.  The generator makes some (to us) undefined voltage and current and pipes this directly into the inverter.  The inverter does its thing and supplies 120 VAC at 60 hz to the convenience outlet on the generator.  I have not had a chance to look inside the Honda EU generator yet but in my EX-350 (inverter generator but square wave instead of sine), there is a relatively small permanent magnet 3 phase alternator mounted directly on the crankshaft that looks a whole lot like a motorcycle generator.  The voltage and frequency generated is dependent on the engine speed.  This 3 phase power is piped directly into an epoxy potted module that is the inverter. The inverter does add some cost to the unit, though one can’t compare the retail price of standalone inverters with their, IMHO, exorbitant retail prices.  But the inverter also reduces other costs.  No longer must the alternator have a wound rotor, slip rings or voltage regulator.  It can be a simple permanent magnet affair. The engine no longer has to have a fast, precise governor since the engine no longer has to run at synch speed.  The microprocessor that runs the inverter also controls some sort of simple throttle actuator to bring the engine to whatever speed is needed to supply the inverter at whatever the load is.   The other benefits make the premium charged for these machines well worth it.  The major one is that the generator no longer has to run at high speed under part load.  It runs at only whatever speed is needed to supply the load.  That makes it MUCH quieter and much more efficient on gas consumption.  Weight is another benefit.  Since at full load, the alternator is generating at high frequency, it needs much less iron in its stator than a 60 hz unit does.  And the rotor has little more than magnets and cast aluminum.  The weight savings are very significant, especially in a portable.  Another benefit is the very clean output, at least in the case of Honda and probably with the other brands.  The synthesized sine wave output of the Honda EU is very clean and stays that way under load.  Regulator generator waveform ranges from OK to horrible.  Doesn’t matter much for the AC or the microwave oven but it DOES matter for some, perhaps most A/V equipment. Prior to last weekend I had only seen and heard an EU generator running as a demo at a dealer.  Fabulously quiet but that was not its normal environment.  Last weekend I saw and heard an EU3000 being used to feed a motorhome.  It was running the MH’s AC and yet just sitting there on the ground, it was one of the quietest generators I’ve ever heard run.  I was impressed!  The AC was just about as loud.  This was just sitting on the ground and not in a generator box surrounded by sound baffling materials. John — John De Armond http://personal.bellsouth.net/~johngd/ Neon John’s Custom Neon Cleveland, TN "Bendin’ Glass ‘n Passin’ Gas"

Response:

A previous post in this thread stated that a 13500 BTU RoofAir will operate just fine on an Onan 2500 watt generator.  

If you’re referring to my post, note that I said 2800 (2.8Kw) watts, not 2500. (The propane version of the Microlite is 2500Kw.) However — a big fat "oops" is in order here. I just went out to my van and dug a little deeper, and I found out that my roof air is an 11,000 btu, not 13,500. The info sheet I have covers both sizes, and I had to remove the filter and look inside the unit to see the model number. This would explain why, as I have said here in the past, I have no trouble running it — along with other devices simultaneously — on a 15-amp circuit or on my 2.8Kw generator. The info clearly states that the minimum size generator required for my unit is 2500 watts; for the 13,500 the minimum is indeed 3500 watts, as you stated earlier in the thread. My apologies to you and others for the misinformation. Other than the price I dont really know the difference between an Onan and a Honda of the same output rating.  I suspect the Onan is superior, but perhaps it costs twice as much (??)

I would imagine the difference has to do with the fact that the Onan is designed and built to be run in an enclosure and the Honda is not. Certainly something to consider if that’s your intent. GB in NC

Response:

Honda EU3000is http://www.mayberrys.com/honda/generator/models/eu3000is.htm Hugh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One last bit of advice.  Resist the urge to punt all this technical stuff and just buy too large a generator.  Conventional (non inverter) generators are quite inefficient users of fuel at part load and they’re louder than smaller units.  A loud, gas guzzling generator is not a fun camping companion!  The inverter generators, and to a lesser extent, conventional diesel generators are the exceptions to the rule.  The engine in the inverter generator is run only as fast as necessary to supply the pravailing load. John Can you suggest a make and model of genset that fits the properties in the above paragraph. Thanks Neville Neville MADDEN Howlong,  New South Wales AUSTRALIA

Response:

The only way we can advise ya is if you check the 7100 and find out either the amp draw or the wattage. We need one or the other to tell what size genset ya need. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I run my 600 watt microwave off my Honda EX1000 without a problem – but I don’t run anything else at the time I have the same question about the 7100 – let me know if you get an answer. HI, Can someone tell me what the minumum generator is for a 7100 BTU air conditioner?  I have a 13500 on my TT and the book says it needs at least a 3500 watt generator, but it is not clear on the 7100 unit. I’m thinking of getting a Honda EX2500 but I’m not certain it will be able to start the A/C. Also, I would like to know how big of a generator it would take to start a 700 watt microwave (I may opt for a smaller generator and get an evaporative cooler instead).  Will the Honda EX1000 do the job? Thanks, Jim Before you buy.

Response:

My book for the 13500 BTU unit also lists the current draw for the 7100 (I dont have the book with me at the moment).  There is a figure for the fan (blower) and a seperate figure for the compressor.  Determining the total wattage is easy enough, but I don’t know how to determine how much of a surge of current draw will take place starting the compressor. What I was hoping for is someone who has one and a genny that could just say from experience what works and what doesn’t. A previous post in this thread stated that a 13500 BTU RoofAir will operate just fine on an Onan 2500 watt generator.  Other than the price I dont really know the difference between an Onan and a Honda of the same output rating.  I suspect the Onan is superior, but perhaps it costs twice as much (??) Someone else mentioned an "Inverter" type generator as opposed to an alternator type that produces 120 VAC directly.  I assume the inverter type uses a lower (24VDC?) voltage and converts it to AC.  Sounds nice,  but don’t 2500 watt sine wave inverters cost thousands of dollars? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The only way we can advise ya is if you check the 7100 and find out either the amp draw or the wattage. We need one or the other to tell what size genset ya need. I run my 600 watt microwave off my Honda EX1000 without a problem – but I don’t run anything else at the time I have the same question about the 7100 – let me know if you get an answer. HI, Can someone tell me what the minumum generator is for a 7100 BTU air conditioner?  I have a 13500 on my TT and the book says it needs at least a 3500 watt generator, but it is not clear on the 7100 unit. I’m thinking of getting a Honda EX2500 but I’m not certain it will be able to start the A/C. Also, I would like to know how big of a generator it would take to start a 700 watt microwave (I may opt for a smaller generator and get an evaporative cooler instead).  Will the Honda EX1000 do the job? Thanks, Jim Before you buy.

Before you buy.

Response:

HI, Can someone tell me what the minumum generator is for a 7100 BTU air conditioner?  I have a 13500 on my TT and the book says it needs at least a 3500 watt generator, but it is not clear on the 7100 unit. I’m thinking of getting a Honda EX2500 but I’m not certain it will be able to start the A/C. Also, I would like to know how big of a generator it would take to start a 700 watt microwave (I may opt for a smaller generator and get an evaporative cooler instead).  Will the Honda EX1000 do the job? Thanks, Jim Before you buy.

Response:

Can someone tell me what the minumum generator is for a 7100 BTU air conditioner?  I have a 13500 on my TT and the book says it needs at least a 3500 watt generator, but it is not clear on the 7100 unit.

I don’t know the answer to your specific question, but I wonder why they say you need 3500 watts. Just for comparison purposes, my Class B has a 13,500 btu roof air and a 2.8Kw Onan Microlite, which runs it just fine (as well as the 450-watt Hott Rod water heater unit and numerous other smaller loads all at the same time). FWIW. (Maybe not much…) GB in NC

Response:

Jim, You’ll find a power requirement chart on the Onan website at http://www.cummins.com/na/pages/en/products/powergeneration/generator… that should help answer your questions. Mike, CA RVChem – http://www.rvchem.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HI, Can someone tell me what the minumum generator is for a 7100 BTU air conditioner?  I have a 13500 on my TT and the book says it needs at least a 3500 watt generator, but it is not clear on the 7100 unit. I’m thinking of getting a Honda EX2500 but I’m not certain it will be able to start the A/C. Also, I would like to know how big of a generator it would take to start a 700 watt microwave (I may opt for a smaller generator and get an evaporative cooler instead).  Will the Honda EX1000 do the job? Thanks, Jim Before you buy.

Response:

I run my 600 watt microwave off my Honda EX1000 without a problem – but I don’t run anything else at the time I have the same question about the 7100 – let me know if you get an answer.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HI, Can someone tell me what the minumum generator is for a 7100 BTU air conditioner?  I have a 13500 on my TT and the book says it needs at least a 3500 watt generator, but it is not clear on the 7100 unit. I’m thinking of getting a Honda EX2500 but I’m not certain it will be able to start the A/C. Also, I would like to know how big of a generator it would take to start a 700 watt microwave (I may opt for a smaller generator and get an evaporative cooler instead).  Will the Honda EX1000 do the job? Thanks, Jim Before you buy.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I run my 600 watt microwave off my Honda EX1000 without a problem – but I don’t run anything else at the time I have the same question about the 7100 – let me know if you get an answer. HI, Can someone tell me what the minumum generator is for a 7100 BTU air conditioner?  I have a 13500 on my TT and the book says it needs at least a 3500 watt generator, but it is not clear on the 7100 unit.  Taking the math working with the current draw of 8.2 amps gives us 1333.4w required to support this unit. Remember that would be a constant power requirement. ( E*1.414*I=W )

Power is simply E*I for resistive loads (984 watts in this case if the AC were purely resistive) or  true power is E*I*Power factor for non-resistive loads.  For the AC, that matters a little as we’ll see below.    You need some overhead to cover lights and such plus surges. Add about 1k min for buffer.  So safely you need a 2.5kw generator to run the whole show.

This issue comes up often enough that I decided to make some measurements.  So I whipped out my Esterline-Angus Power Master IIIB and instrumented my RV.  This instrument measures volts, amps, KW, KVA, KVARS, power factor, the -hour versions the above as applicable, and inrush current.  Nifty little instrument. I have a Coleman 15Kbtu low inrush AC on my rig.  While larger than the unit in this thread, the numbers are representative, as is the analysis. Here’s what I measure on a nice cool 70 deg night: volts   121 Amps    11.5 KVA     1.4 KW      1.3 PF      .94 Inrush  63 amps Important to note that the current and power consumption goes up a LOT in hotter weather.  The inrush doesn’t go up much at all, since it is really just the locked rotor current.  How long the power source has to supply inrush DOES depend on thermal conditions, however.  If it’s really hot out and the unit has just recently been run so that there’s both a high absolute head pressure and a high differential pressure across the compressor, inrush may be drawn for as long as several seconds.  Inrush will also be drawn longer if the power source is "soft" (voltage droops with load as with a small generator).  My tests were performed on shore power. To check the measurements, 121 volts * 11.5 amps = 1391 volt-amps – close enough to 1.4KVA.  Multiplying by the PF of .94 yields 1308 watts – again, close enough to 1.3KW.  The measurement passes the confidence check. Now let’s contemplate what these numbers tell us.  If RUNNING the AC was the only concern, a 1500 watt generator would be more than enough.  However, that’s not the issue.  In order to RUN the AC, I have to START it.  The issue is whether the generator can supply the inrush KVAs required to start the compressor.  From the above, 121 volts * 63 amps = 7623 volt-amps or 7.6 KVA.  (This is worst case since in reality, the line – even shore power – will sag a bit under inrush conditions resulting in fewer KVA being required but worst case is best in these analyses.) Generators are nominally rated in kilowatts but in reality, the rating is really in KVA, kilo-volt-amps.  If I slap a nearly purely reactive load, say a choke or mag tape degausser) across the generator and the load pulls the generator’s full rated amps, the generator is maximally loaded even though the watt draw, by definition, is near zero.  I’m going to use KVA instead of kilowatts in the rest of this discussion so that terms don’t get mixed up. Apparently it would take an 8 KVA generator to start my AC.  That can’t be true since it runs just fine on my Onan 3kw AJ generator. How?  Each generator has a surge rating that is much higher than its continuous rating.  For conventional generators, the instantaneous surge rating is determined by how much iron and copper there is in the stator, how strong the field is and how much flywheel effect there is on the rotating parts.  Heavier = better!!  After the first few cycles of inrush, the motor starting capability depends in large measure on how fast the governor reacts.  For inverter generators such as the Honda EU series, the main limiting factor is how much current the inverter can supply before going into current-limit mode and secondarily on how fast the engine can spool up to feed the inverter.  A TYPICAL inrush capacity is 3 times the continuous rating. Taking that number, my 3 KVA onan should be able to supply 3 * 3 = 9 KVA surge.  Since it easily starts my AC, the evidence is that it indeed can supply that much current.  One can observe the governor slam the throttle wide open almost instantly when the AC kicks on, followed by tapering back to about half throttle to run. This analysis has been pretty straightforward to this point.  The complication arises in that not all generators can supply 3X starting current.  Lightweight and/or cheap generators usually can’t.  Iron and copper and rotating mass are minimized to reduce cost and weight and it kills the inrush capability.  For example, I have a 4 KVA yamaha generator that will not start my 2 HP portable air compressor even though the inrush is less than 3X the generator’s nominal rating.  Just can’t supply the umph to make it happen! Since very few generator manufacturers supply inrush specs (Honda on their EU series is the major exception that I know of), it becomes very difficult to do a paper analysis.  There is only one way to determine if a given AC unit can run from a candidate generator and that is to test it.  Some manufacturers have done the testing for you.  For example, Onan specifies how many ACs of what rating their generators can run.  And even with specs, there’s no substitute for testing.  One must find a dealer who will allow one to connect his actual AC unit to the model being considered for purchase.  Ideally the test should be conducted with instrumentation similar to mine so that the hot weather "headroom" can be determined.  Peak-reading amp clamps which will measure the inrush are fairly cheap.  If the dealer doesn’t have one, I’d certainly spend a $100 or so to verify that the $2000 generator would do the job before buying it.  It is also interesting to measure how much the generator speed drops during the inrush event.  This gives an indication of how well the governor works and how close to the edge the generator is.  My Fluke 88 DVM can measure RPM with a peak/valley hold function.  Other, less expensive instruments can do the same. If you don’t understand all this and/or don’t have the instrumentation, then follow Pournelli’s Rule which says "If you don’t know what you’re doing, pay someone who does."  That payment might be in the form of a knowledgeable and well equipped dealer who doesn’t discount or it might be a consulting engineer such as myself.  In any event, it’s cheaper to do it right rather than have to do it over! Back to the original question:  The way to do a paper analysis of your situation is this.  Look in your AC owner’s manual for the specification on inrush amps.  If the manual does not contain this spec, then take the cover off the unit and look on the compressor. There will be a nameplate on the compressor (NOT the AC unit itself) and one of the specs will be "LRA" or Locked Rotor Amps.  LRA is close enough to inrush for this analysis.  I’d expect it to be in the 50 amp range for a unit of that size.  Next, look at your candidate generator’s spec.  Get the full load amp (FLA) rating.  If the generator is NOT an RV generator, then it likely has dual 120/240 volt outputs.  One 120 volt outlet invariably has a higher rating than the other.  Use the high one. If you’re looking at a 3 KVA unit, the FLA may be 25 amps.  Multiply the FLA by 3.  In this example, 75 amps.  This is the generator’s estimated inrush capability.  If the inrush amps spec is significantly larger than the LRA of the compressor, then the generator will probably run the unit.  I say "probably" because you don’t know the ACTUAL surge capability of a given generator until you test. Another approach is to work backwards.  Take the LRA and divide it by 3.  If the LRA of your unit is 50 amps, dividing by 3 = 17 amps. A generator capable of supplying 17 FLA at 120 volts is 2 KVA.  So a nominal 2.5 KW (remember we really mean KVA here) generator will PROBABLY start the AC.  Again, you MUST test.  Beware of discount dealers who won’t make a demonstrator available and who won’t refund your money once you gas and oil a unit you purchase. One last bit of advice.  Resist the urge to punt all this technical stuff and just buy too large a generator.  Conventional (non inverter) generators are quite inefficient users of fuel at part load and they’re louder than smaller units.  A loud, gas guzzling generator is not a fun camping companion!  The inverter generators, and to a lesser extent, conventional diesel generators are the exceptions to the rule.  The engine in the inverter generator is run only as fast as necessary to supply the pravailing load. John — John De Armond http://personal.bellsouth.net/~johngd/ Neon John’s Custom Neon Cleveland, TN "Bendin’ Glass ‘n Passin’ Gas"

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One last bit of advice.  Resist the urge to punt all this technical stuff and just buy too large a generator.  Conventional (non inverter) generators are quite inefficient users of fuel at part load and they’re louder than smaller units.  A loud, gas guzzling generator is not a fun camping companion!  The inverter generators, and to a lesser extent, conventional diesel generators are the exceptions to the rule.  The engine in the inverter generator is run only as fast as necessary to supply the pravailing load. John

Can you suggest a make and model of genset that fits the properties in the above paragraph. Thanks Neville Neville MADDEN Howlong,  New South Wales AUSTRALIA

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